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[big_palooka]

22 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

I'm usually against trading a ton to move up. I'm not going to act like I'm not. 

That said, with hindsight and given our QB position and the FA signings, I would do it in a heartbeat in a redraft situation. 

Maye, McCarthy, Penix, or even Nix. I would've done what was necessary for any of them. There's no one-size-fits-all because in real time the cost would change as guys left the board. 

Maye was probably out of reach though. 

But I would have been blowing up the Giants, Titans, Bears, and Jets to go from 13 to 6, 7, 9, or 11. 

Considering who the potential trade partners took and the targets for who we needed to try and jump (Atlanta, Minnesota, Denver), I would've done it and I think all them would've been willing to play ball. 

I don't really care what anyone says though, I'm steadfast in my belief that AP wanted Daniels and once it was apparent he was out of reach, we folded, at the very least in spirit and mentality. Whether Telesco was in the same boat or they simply couldn't reach a consensus on Penix, McCarthy, or Nix is certainly debatable.

But I absolutely don't buy the "we tried and it didn't happen" excuse. Too many viable trade partners who could've likely still got their guy at 13. Outside of QB, there wasn't a "run" or even a risk of one on OTs or WRs that 13 would have taken the Giants, Titans, Bears, or Jets out of. Too much chatter about AP fawning over Daniels. Too much chatter about Telesco "always standing his ground" in round 1. Where there's smoke....

What's done is done and all we can do now is wait and hope the next time doesn't go bust again. But in hindsight, yeah, I would've given a pretty penny for any of them. 

I have a feeling we're going to have to trade up regardless. I would've rather done it this year than next. With contract talks, a 2026 1st probably hurts us more than giving up a 2025 1st to move up this year. 

I disagree to some degree. Giants need WR and love Nabors who's going to be a star. The Jets publically said they didn't have interest in trading out of the top 10 when they traded down a spot with Minnesota. Atlanta said they were zero'd in on Penix which was a surprise to everyone. They wanted a QBOTF. 

I do agree with the AP/Daniels part. I think he had tunnel vision on one option then moved on. 

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Would you have preferred he traded multiple picks including a 1 next year to move up? Who for? 

Daniels or Penix 

[big_palooka]

12 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Daniels or Penix 

Daniels, it's was already established Washington wasn't going to trade out. Raiders among others tired. 

Falcons were all in on Penix at 8. Wouldn't even consider a trade back with the Bears one spot: https://www.si.com/nfl/falcons/news/report-falcons-turned-down-easy-trade-down-with-bears-01j0eeaj0vqn

Not so easy is it? Neither Daniels or Penix were available to anyone, including the Raiders. McCarthy wasn't going to get past Minnesota.

That left Nix, who Denver wasn't going to let get past them..... Would you have been in favor of trading up for Bo Nix?

Why is it so hard to admit that maybe, just like most drafts trading into the top 10 picks is difficult?

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, big_palooka said:

Daniels, it's was already established Washington wasn't going to trade out. Raiders among others tired. 

Falcons were all in on Penix at 8. Wouldn't even consider a trade back with the Bears one spot: https://www.si.com/nfl/falcons/news/report-falcons-turned-down-easy-trade-down-with-bears-01j0eeaj0vqn

Not so easy is it? Neither Daniels or Penix were available to anyone, including the Raiders. McCarthy wasn't going to get past Minnesota.

That left Nix, who Denver wasn't going to let get past them..... Would you have been in favor of trading up for Bo Nix?

Why is it so hard to admit that maybe, just like most drafts trading into the top 10 picks is difficult?

It's difficult to acquire a franchise QB, the top tier teams in the league have found a way. The Raiders have made excuses for decades.

[Styrian Raider]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

It's difficult to acquire a franchise QB, the top tier teams in the league have found a way. The Raiders have made excuses for decades.

Which of the top tier teams found a franchise QB in a draft picking outside the top 12 where half of the top 12 selections were QBs?

 

Edited August 21 by Styrian Raider
Me No english

[NYRaider]

Just now, Styrian Raider said:

Which of the top tier teams found a franchise QB in a draft outside the top 12 in a draft where half of the top 12 selections were QBs?

Not sure. 

I do know that the Chiefs, Bills, and Ravens all traded up to get their franchise QBs. And they've largely been the most successful teams in the AFC over the last 5+ seasons because of it.

The Raiders have wasted literal decades by committing to mediocre QB play. We've drafted first round QB's in the last 30 years despite only having one top tier QB during that span.

 

[Humble_Beast]

Last year people had Jayden as mid round pick. I see a few guys with traits and flashed. Going be interesting to see who steps up. We need a QB in 25

[NYRaider]

 

[raidr4life]

16 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I was a fan of all of the QB lol

I wasn’t as big on Maye / JJ

but liked Caleb Daniels and Penix 

Do I have to look this up or should I just take your word for it. Lol

[Styrian Raider]

10 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Not sure. 

I do know that the Chiefs, Bills, and Ravens all traded up to get their franchise QBs. And they've largely been the most successful teams in the AFC over the last 5+ seasons because of it.

The Raiders have wasted literal decades by committing to mediocre QB play. We've drafted first round QB's in the last 30 years despite only having one top tier QB during that span.

 

This is the kind of answer I expected... But hey, let's just look together at the recent drafts:

That QB6 was off the board with pick 12 has never happened before.

The only draft that comes close to what happend this year is draft 2021 with 5 QBs picked in the top15:
#1 Trevor Lawrence
#2 Zach Wilson
#3 Trey Lance
#11 Justin Fields
#15 Mac Jones

Only Lawrence got a 2nd contract from the team that picked him.

From the last 8 drafts also only Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts are the only QB4 and QB5 drafted that are considered franchise QBs.

[ronjon1990]

11 hours ago, Styrian Raider said:

Which of the top tier teams found a franchise QB in a draft picking outside the top 12 where half of the top 12 selections were QBs?

 

At 13 or later (currently active QBs only, not counting happy accidents like Russ or Cousins and capping the picks within the first 2 rounds) the entire list consists of:

Aaron Rodgers, pick 24

Lamar Jackson, pick 32

Will Levis, pick 33

Jalen Hurts, pick 53

Jordan Love, pick 26

Geno Smith, pick 39

Then you have your late round steals, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Brock Purdy. 

There's 9/32 QBs right there (some were franchise guys, some became franchise guys, some like Geno just very solid and in horrid situations). 

You also have to then account for who traded up from 13 or lower if we're truly giving a fair analysis, because the point @NYRaideris making is that you can't just stand pat and expect Aaron Rodgers to fall to you if you goof around and win too many games. 

*HM: Josh Allen- Buffalo had pick 12 and traded a 1st and 2 2nds to jump up and get him. 

DeShaun Watson was taken with pick 12 that Houston traded for. 

Patrick Mahomes was taken at 10 after KC moved up. 

Jared Goff was taken at 1 following a trade up from 15. 

This also doesn't include whiffs like Carson Wentz, where a guy ultimately didn't work out, but the attempt and intention was there. 

It's actually relatively uncommon for a QB to go in the top 12 to a team with a team's orignal pick. Those who have are usually taken 1, 2, or 3. 

I will say though, you bring up the caveat of 6 QBs taken in the first 12. This is true, and it is indeed rare.

However, when you start the day at 13 knowing you need a QB and at least 5 teams ahead of you (Chicago, Washington, New Emgland, Minnesota, and Denver) are virtual locks to take a QB, you sit at 13 at your own peril. Anyone who discounted Atlanta going QB was being a bit foolish, given Kirk Cousins' age and coming back from a major injury. Them taking a QB was visible a mile off, it's only shocking they chose Penix over McCarthy. You also had dark horse potential with the Jets (Rodgers is 40 and coming off injury) and the Titans (if they weren't enamored with Levis, have a new HC). Arizona was probably off the table as they seem determined to ride Kyler Murray into oblivion. The only teams that were practically out of the QB running altogether though were the Giants due to Jones' contract and the Chargers with Herbert. 

You also had dark horse potential jumpers right behind you in New Orleans (14), Seattle (16), the Rams (19), and the Steelers (20). 

6 QBs, 8 potential QB landing spots in front of you, 12 QB needy teams overall, not counting yourself. 

You don't rest at 13 and then get to act shocked when you miss out with odds like that. It's perfectly ok to have varying reasons for not wanting to enter a bidding war to trade up. But @NYRaider's point that savvy franchises find ways to make things happen isn't off-base. His frustration seems aligned with mine in that regard- it's not that it just didn't happen for us, it's that there's a lot of smoke indicating that we probably didn't really even try and/or rested on the idea that one would be there against imsane odds, only for the brass and beat writers to immediately handwave it off as "well whodathunkit?".

I'll tell you whodathunkedit- anyone who can count and pays attention. The rationale I saw most for Atlanta not being a threat was because Cousins. Ludicrous. He's 36 years old coming off a blown Achilles. The rationale for the Jets? They have Aaron Rodgers. Ludicrous. He's 40 and coming off a blown Achilles and has waffled on retirement publicly for years now. The Titans? Levis. Meh, he was a 2nd rounder under a departed HC. And the Bears, Commanders, Patriots, Broncos, and Vikings were obvious QB landing spots. 

Like I said, it's perfectly acceptable to say you didn't want a bidding war. It's disingenuous to pretend a QB not being there at 13 wasn't easily foreseeable though. But that has been the narrative pushed by the brass and beat writers and parroted by people who want to defend them. 

So I can totally understand his beef with how we appear to have played things. And it goes beyond any one person. I think AP had tunnel vision for his boy Jayden. I think Telesco doesn't know how to deal or work a draft board (never really did with the Chargers). I don't think Mark made it clear they weren't getting a ton of f-around and find out time, or he put zero pressure on them at all. I think the beat writers will pimp every move they make as a stroke of genius to try and jockey for position to "get the scoop". Those factors don't resemble a top tier franchise to begin with, which is a frustrating thing in itself. So...I get your point, but I get his as well. You gotta be in the right position, as you say, but if you're not there naturally, you've gotta have the spine and sense to find a way to get there. 

*You* being general, not."you" specifically

Edited August 22 by ronjon1990

[Styrian Raider]

59 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

At 13 or later (currently active QBs only, not counting happy accidents like Russ or Cousins and capping the picks within the first 2 rounds) the entire list consists of:

Aaron Rodgers, pick 24

Lamar Jackson, pick 32

Will Levis, pick 33

Jalen Hurts, pick 53

Jordan Love, pick 26

Geno Smith, pick 39

Then you have your late round steals, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Brock Purdy. 

There's 9/32 QBs right there (some were franchise guys, some became franchise guys, some like Geno just very solid and in horrid situations). 

You also have to then account for who traded up from 13 or lower if we're truly giving a fair analysis, because the point @NYRaideris making is that you can't just stand pat and expect Aaron Rodgers to fall to you if you goof around and win too many games. 

*HM: Josh Allen- Buffalo had pick 12 and traded a 1st and 2 2nds to jump up and get him. 

DeShaun Watson was taken with pick 12 that Houston traded for. 

Patrick Mahomes was taken at 10 after KC moved up. 

Jared Goff was taken at 1 following a trade up from 15. 

This also doesn't include whiffs like Carson Wentz, where a guy ultimately didn't work out, but the attempt and intention was there. 

It's actually relatively uncommon for a QB to go in the top 12 to a team with a team's orignal pick. Those who have are usually taken 1, 2, or 3. 

I will say though, you bring up the caveat of 6 QBs taken in the first 12. This is true, and it is indeed rare.

However, when you start the day at 13 knowing you need a QB and at least 5 teams ahead of you (Chicago, Washington, New Emgland, Minnesota, and Denver) are virtual locks to take a QB, you sit at 13 at your own peril. Anyone who discounted Atlanta going QB was being a bit foolish, given Kirk Cousins' age and coming back from a major injury. Them taking a QB was visible a mile off, it's only shocking they chose Penix over McCarthy. You also had dark horse potential with the Jets (Rodgers is 40 and coming off injury) and the Titans (if they weren't enamored with Levis, have a new HC). Arizona was probably off the table as they seem determined to ride Kyler Murray into oblivion. The only teams that were practically out of the QB running altogether though were the Giants due to Jones' contract and the Chargers with Herbert. 

You also had dark horse potential jumpers right behind you in New Orleans (14), Seattle (16), the Rams (19), and the Steelers (20). 

6 QBs, 8 potential QB landing spots in front of you, 12 QB needy teams overall, not counting yourself. 

You don't rest at 13 and then get to act shocked when you miss out with odds like that. It's perfectly ok to have varying reasons for not wanting to enter a bidding war to trade up. But @NYRaider's point that savvy franchises find ways to make things happen isn't off-base. His frustration seems aligned with mine in that regard- it's not that it just didn't happen for us, it's that there's a lot of smoke indicating that we probably didn't really even try and/or rested on the idea that one would be there against imsane odds, only for the brass and beat writers to immediately handwave it off as "well whodathunkit?".

I'll tell you whodathunkedit- anyone who can count and pays attention. The rationale I saw most for Atlanta not being a threat was because Cousins. Ludicrous. He's 36 years old coming off a blown Achilles. The rationale for the Jets? They have Aaron Rodgers. Ludicrous. He's 40 and coming off a blown Achilles and has waffled on retirement publicly for years now. The Titans? Levis. Meh, he was a 2nd rounder under a departed HC. And the Bears, Commanders, Patriots, Broncos, and Vikings were obvious QB landing spots. 

Like I said, it's perfectly acceptable to say you didn't want a bidding war. It's disingenuous to pretend a QB not being there at 13 wasn't easily foreseeable though. But that has been the narrative pushed by the brass and beat writers and parroted by people who want to defend them. 

So I can totally understand his beef with how we appear to have played things. And it goes beyond any one person. I think AP had tunnel vision for his boy Jayden. I think Telesco doesn't know how to deal or work a draft board (never really did with the Chargers). I don't think Mark made it clear they weren't getting a ton of f-around and find out time, or he put zero pressure on them at all. I think the beat writers will pimp every move they make as a stroke of genius to try and jockey for position to "get the scoop". Those factors don't resemble a top tier franchise to begin with, which is a frustrating thing in itself. So...I get your point, but I get his as well. You gotta be in the right position, as you say, but if you're not there naturally, you've gotta have the spine and sense to find a way to get there. 

*You* being general, not."you" specifically

Sure taking a risk could give you "a guy" - main question is: "Is he THE guy or just another guy?"

The Bears traded up twice for a QB, they twice gave up a good amount of draft capital and twice they got deep into doo-doo. Luckily they found the Panthers who just did the same **** and gave up a lot of capital for Bryce Young and will probably a strong contender for the #1 pick next year.

And that could've been the Raiders aswell, if you remember the reports that JMD liked Bryce Young and DZ reached out to trade up in the draft.

The draft is so simple in theory - "pick a guy that makes your team better" - but the execution isn't always that easy.

 

I think not going into a biding war this year could help us to find the QBotF next year, IF we just find the right one, and keep the eyes open what happens around us.


 

[big_palooka]

Issue I have with the "trade up" thing is it requires a team to trade down. Not many trades happen inside the top 10. There are only a handful of true first round picks. The cream of the crop guys typically taken in the top 10 picks and teams covet them and they won't risk the talent drop off to the next level. 

Everyone else is a crapshoot outside the handful of guys. 

Nabors, Harrison, Odunze, Alt, Fashanu are all franchise guys at their position. The teams that drafted them were not going to be trading back and miss on them. Then factor in the QBs and the needy teams there. They were not going to miss on QBs. 

Point is, it's not easy to trade up. Several teams tried with the Jets, Bears, Giants and they didn't bite. Why do some of you think the Raiders are entitled to move up when other teams were told no? 

[NYRaider]

13 hours ago, Styrian Raider said:

This is the kind of answer I expected... But hey, let's just look together at the recent drafts:

That QB6 was off the board with pick 12 has never happened before.

The only draft that comes close to what happend this year is draft 2021 with 5 QBs picked in the top15:
#1 Trevor Lawrence
#2 Zach Wilson
#3 Trey Lance
#11 Justin Fields
#15 Mac Jones

Only Lawrence got a 2nd contract from the team that picked him.

From the last 8 drafts also only Lamar Jackson and Jalen Hurts are the only QB4 and QB5 drafted that are considered franchise QBs.

Rolling with arguably the worst starting QB in the league that led a team to a 1-15 record is definitely a better strategy.

[NYRaider]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Issue I have with the "trade up" thing is it requires a team to trade down. Not many trades happen inside the top 10. There are only a handful of true first round picks. The cream of the crop guys typically taken in the top 10 picks and teams covet them and they won't risk the talent drop off to the next level. 

Everyone else is a crapshoot outside the handful of guys. 

Nabors, Harrison, Odunze, Alt, Fashanu are all franchise guys at their position. The teams that drafted them were not going to be trading back and miss on them. Then factor in the QBs and the needy teams there. They were not going to miss on QBs. 

Point is, it's not easy to trade up. Several teams tried with the Jets, Bears, Giants and they didn't bite. Why do some of you think the Raiders are entitled to move up when other teams were told no? 

What's the point of even trying then? The Raiders should just accept they'll never get a QB. It's not like the 3 best QB's in the entire league were acquired by teams that traded up for them...