swede700 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 (edited) What does JJ have to do with CJ Stroud? But, yes, I would probably rather have JJ than Caleb Williams, because Jefferson is a proven commodity. Until he proves that he's anything like Patrick Mahomes, I'd rather have JJ because any young QB is going to need a JJ to help him along. That's why what the Panthers did last year was pure idiocy. Edited March 1 by swede700 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWG VIKE Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: That is great but fact is would anyone rather have Justin Jefferson than CJ Stroud right now for the next five years? I know I wouldn't and I really doubt the Texans would even entertain the offer to trade the two. Would anyone rather have Justin Jefferson over Caleb Williams? If that was possible I might move in the Caleb Williams direction long term over having a WR like Justin Jefferson long term. Granted ideal situation is a guy like Daniels or Drake Maye ideally falls to #11 and the Vikings take him and do not resign Kirk Cousins. Josh McCown was Drake Maye's assistant coach in high school. That to me gives hope to having a guy like Justin Jefferson long term. Because if we just have Kirk Cousins at some ridiculous contract number, it will just be more the same with less talent on the roster because of all the money those two will be getting combined. You can't answer this question accurately without dollars and putting into context who your WR would be with Jefferson or who your WR would be with Stroud. To many variables to make a point. Edited March 1 by BWG VIKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcblack34 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 We've already won a $500,000,000 lottery, but people want to trade the winnings for a chance to win a $600,000,000 lottery. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 1 hour ago, swede700 said: What does JJ have to do with CJ Stroud? But, yes, I would probably rather have JJ than Caleb Williams, because Jefferson is a proven commodity. Until he proves that he's anything like Patrick Mahomes, I'd rather have JJ because any young QB is going to need a JJ to help him along. That's why what the Panthers did last year was pure idiocy. I bring up CJ Stroud because based off his amazing rookie year, yeah I would say he would be a proven commodity at this point and in no way would the Texans ever trade him away for Justin Jefferson, that is the point. Sure Caleb Williams is a question mark still but either way no team would rather have Justin Jefferson than proven up and coming young QB that is elite. You do not win in the NFL with a great WR only and if the Vikings pay Justin Jefferson the most money of any player in the NFL that is not a QB, and then pay Kirk Cousins a top QB price, the organization will fail over that time span in my opinion. If all that matters is have All Pro/Hall of Fame level players at WR then yes great pay Justin Jefferson, but really all that should matter is winning and winning at a high level not having individual player success. There is a reason not a ton of WRs get paid absolutely crazy amounts of money. There is a reason the 15 highest paid players in 2023 where all QBs and out of the top 28 highest paid players in the NFL, three are WRs and the only one that is successful in terms of actually winning has a HOF QB throwing him the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 11 minutes ago, Ozzy said: You do not win in the NFL with a great WR only and if the Vikings pay Justin Jefferson the most money of any player in the NFL that is not a QB, and then pay Kirk Cousins a top QB price, the organization will fail over that time span in my opinion. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Vikings have the intention of winning with a great WR only...however, you don't get rid of one just in the desire to potentially get a great QB (which we don't know whether Caleb is going to be or not...I tend to believe not until proven otherwise). And, at least at this point, they may end up not paying Kirk big money...but, I've been in the camp that I have no issue with paying Kirk, because it's only going to be for 2 years...it's not like the amount of money that, let's say the Packers (for the sake of the bit), are going to have to pay Love for several years now. He may end up being a good QB (I don't think he'll end up in the great QB category), yet they're probably going to have to pay him $50M a year. I'd rather pay Kirk $50M for 2 years (although I don't see that happening) than pay Love $50M a year for the next 5, which then the Packers are probably going to have to fork over big money to guys like Wicks, Reed, Watson or Doubs...whomever comes out of that as the best WR. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 33 minutes ago, swede700 said: I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Vikings have the intention of winning with a great WR only...however, you don't get rid of one just in the desire to potentially get a great QB (which we don't know whether Caleb is going to be or not...I tend to believe not until proven otherwise). And, at least at this point, they may end up not paying Kirk big money...but, I've been in the camp that I have no issue with paying Kirk, because it's only going to be for 2 years...it's not like the amount of money that, let's say the Packers (for the sake of the bit), are going to have to pay Love for several years now. He may end up being a good QB (I don't think he'll end up in the great QB category), yet they're probably going to have to pay him $50M a year. I'd rather pay Kirk $50M for 2 years (although I don't see that happening) than pay Love $50M a year for the next 5, which then the Packers are probably going to have to fork over big money to guys like Wicks, Reed, Watson or Doubs...whomever comes out of that as the best WR. There is no way I would not trade places with what the Packers have in terms of how their roster is constructed to what the Vikings have currently. It is not even a comparison in my book, Packers have by far more young talent than the Vikings do not to mention a promising QB for the foreseeable future. Sure maybe he sucks but I really doubt that, Love was an MVP type late last season and what exactly is going to make him this average player again? Sure eventually they will have to pay those young WRs but they will not have to for another 3-4 years. Wicks, Doubs, Reed, Watson, Kraft and Musgrave all of them COMBINED do not even get $8 together next season. Justin Jefferson after his new contract will get that in what 2-3 games played? No way does the production of all six of those WR/TEs not equal the production Justin Jefferson has. Two or three of them combined is Justin Jefferson's production and that is not even including the other 3-4 guys.... Even if they get Kirk for $25 mil a year which I really doubt, what will that get? They have barely won with a healthy Kirk Cousins and Justin Jefferson how is he going to be better coming off a major torn Achilles much less a pretty major injury for Justin Jefferson as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWG VIKE Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 The only point you have made is that teams won't trade a young franchise QB. All your other hypotheticals don't help your argument. Let's compare apples to apples, dollars to dollars. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelKing728 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Let's make it happen! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Relax Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Ozzy...I really hoped we were beyond this. My opinion is a that a generational talent at WR will likely make your. QB better. Even Kirk's career is at a different level with JJ on the field. You don't trade him while he's in the prime of his career...likely for several more years. I know that you feel differently and I am perfectly fine with that. However, your argument has yet to change anyone's mind on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 19 hours ago, Ozzy said: I bring up CJ Stroud because based off his amazing rookie year, yeah I would say he would be a proven commodity at this point and in no way would the Texans ever trade him away for Justin Jefferson, that is the point. Sure Caleb Williams is a question mark still but either way no team would rather have Justin Jefferson than proven up and coming young QB that is elite. You do not win in the NFL with a great WR only and if the Vikings pay Justin Jefferson the most money of any player in the NFL that is not a QB, and then pay Kirk Cousins a top QB price, the organization will fail over that time span in my opinion. If all that matters is have All Pro/Hall of Fame level players at WR then yes great pay Justin Jefferson, but really all that should matter is winning and winning at a high level not having individual player success. There is a reason not a ton of WRs get paid absolutely crazy amounts of money. There is a reason the 15 highest paid players in 2023 where all QBs and out of the top 28 highest paid players in the NFL, three are WRs and the only one that is successful in terms of actually winning has a HOF QB throwing him the ball. 100% agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said: Let's make it happen! Let’s make sure to walk away from Kirk Cousins first. (Did people think he’d say CeeDee Lamb?) Edited March 2 by CriminalMind 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 27 minutes ago, Captain Relax said: Ozzy...I really hoped we were beyond this. My opinion is a that a generational talent at WR will likely make your. QB better. Even Kirk's career is at a different level with JJ on the field. You don't trade him while he's in the prime of his career...likely for several more years. I know that you feel differently and I am perfectly fine with that. However, your argument has yet to change anyone's mind on this forum. It is not really about changing ones mind. It is saying an opinion, and just the fact there is no true example to use similar to this situation Minnesota is in does matter. But it is as if Green Bay said forget you Jordan Love and trade him away instead of trading Davante Adams away. Sure that is not exactly what happened but as if the Packers would rather have an elite level WR or a promising young QB, no way they would be better off by keeping Adams instead of Love. And again not totally the same of course but yeah the Chiefs traded Tyreek Hill away the WR because that part is dispensable and they have won two Super Bowls in doing so! Vikings are kind of in that situation unless one thinks Kirk Cousins is poised to have the best season of his career and be a future MVP so bring him back. If not, the Vikings do not have a QB so really who cares if they keep Justin Jefferson, you do not build an organization around a WR only and until they fill that QB spot it is all kind of pointless. And at this point I am leaning toward at least get a young QB in this draft, be it Penix, Nix, McCarthy and move on from Kirk because bringing Kirk back one will just get the same results as they have got the last few years and that is not much. So really I am just against paying Cousins and Jefferson, pay one not both of them and if it is Jefferson at least start new if the so called WR can make the QB look good. I do not really believe that in the NFL today, it is not Randy Moss here you can just throw deep to, not sure there is any example of a WR making a bad QB look good and that was kind of shown last year when Jefferson came back, ultimately those bad QBs looked bad because they are bad. But sure a great WR should help a rookie QB succeed and gain confidence no question. As for drafting say JJ McCarthy way higher than he should be and sit him behind Kirk Cousins....that would be shocking if that is a successful move because sure sitting McCarthy would help but then they still have massive holes in key areas possibly at CB, OG, DE and DT. They would have to hit home runs with all their other draft picks and free agent signings to make that type of move work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWG VIKE Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 We don't have Mahomes, if we did and couldn't afford to keep Jefferson then it would make sense to trade hime but we don't. If we had a 1st rd talent QB sitting behind a first ballot hall of famer and Jefferson was disgruntled then it might make sense to trade him but we don't. What if you draft a QB a 11 and they turn out to be then next best thing and now you need to get him an all pro receiver. Jefferson can't be compared to any other situation because he is on a goat trajectory and in his own category. Trying to compare it to proven commodity situations when all you get for him is some lottery tickets, it doesn't validate the comparison. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 24 minutes ago, BWG VIKE said: We don't have Mahomes, if we did and couldn't afford to keep Jefferson then it would make sense to trade hime but we don't. If we had a 1st rd talent QB sitting behind a first ballot hall of famer and Jefferson was disgruntled then it might make sense to trade him but we don't. What if you draft a QB a 11 and they turn out to be then next best thing and now you need to get him an all pro receiver. Jefferson can't be compared to any other situation because he is on a goat trajectory and in his own category. Trying to compare it to proven commodity situations when all you get for him is some lottery tickets, it doesn't validate the comparison. Same thing could have been said about Odell Beckham Jr to start his career, things can change quickly and health becomes a major reason for that. And honestly Justin Jefferson's stats mean nothing because the team does not win and are basically .500 over his career as a Viking, so unless one just wants Hall Of Fame statistics instead of a winning team, go ahead. But really stats without winning is just fantasy league stuff. But very true you need the QB, and really Kirk Cousins is not it. You really think if they sign Kirk Cousins and Justin Jefferson to $50-$60 mil a year combined they will be a winning organization? Maybe that is true but currently not sure I see it, especially with how they have kind of tanked the past few drafts and they have far too many holes at the moment to compete at a super high level. Especially in a division where the Lions are very good, so are the Packers and Chicago should be improved as well with assuming a new, young and talented starting QB. Keep Justin Jefferson, great but the QB position has to be solved and really has to be a home run hit. Cannot be just some stop gap player and they have to be elite. And I still say, it is all pretend, but if I could get a up and coming proven talented young QB by trading Justin Jefferson I would do that in a second. Fact is though no organization would do that, Bengals, Bills, Texans, Packers, Chargers or Ravens...none of them would even consider that move. It speaks to how important a QB is and how unimportant a WR is comparatively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CriminalMind Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) QB is the most important position in professional team sports. They touch the ball 99% of offensive snaps. What % of offensive snaps does Jefferson touch the ball? 12-17% or so? Maybe what is total yards JJ gets compared to total offensive yards gained. Not sure what that percentage is, maybe it’s up to 25% Edited March 2 by CriminalMind 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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