Will the Ravens ever win the Superbowl with Lamar Jackson?

[FrantikRam]

I think people need to remember here that Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees only ever made ONE Super Bowl each. Made, not won - which means that Tom Brady wasn't in their way, they never played in the playoffs AND they only ever made one each.

So let's have realistic expectations for Allen and Jackson here.....odds are they will make one  at some point, but it's not reasonable to think it may be any more than that and they are still young

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 hours ago, RuskieTitan said:

The guy just can't handle the pressure of the playoffs. Regular season, he's able to play fast and loose, and performs. He's likely deserving the second MVP. But just like countless other chokers in other sports, when it comes to the playoffs he withers. 2-5, this is who he is. Using a Houston team that barely made the playoffs as some example of him doing well, he didn't feel the same pressure - his defense gave up 3 all game, special teams the other 7.

Could they go on a streak and win? Possibly, but unlikely if Lamar continues to be who he is when he faces elite teams in the playoffs. And with how crowded the AFC is, it's no guarantee his regular season success ever reaches the postseason.

Idk why people are throwing the HOU game away like it meant nothing. Before that game he had never had a good playoff game before. To say that pressure wasn't high is just extremely false.

And then to say he wasn't feeling pressure because the defense gave up 3 points - it was 10-10 going into halftime and then Lamar scored 3 touchdowns in the 2nd half. This same game against KC the defense gave up 0 points in the 2nd half. The logic just doesn't add up.

I whole-heartedly agree that he seems to not be able to handle the pressure of the playoffs, but we can't just dismiss the HOU game as "oh they barely got in so it doesn't count and his defense only gave up 3 points". Like it or not, he took a step forward in the HOU game and then regressed to his mean against KC. If we want, we can shift the goalposts from "Lamar can't play during the playoffs" to "Lamar can't handle elite teams in the playoffs".

Either way, I think his performance against KC eliminated everything good he did against HOU and brought up the same doubts as people had before the playoffs even started this year.

[notthatbluestuff]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Idk why people are throwing the HOU game away like it meant nothing. Before that game he had never had a good playoff game before. To say that pressure wasn't high is just extremely false.

And then to say he wasn't feeling pressure because the defense gave up 3 points - it was 10-10 going into halftime and then Lamar scored 3 touchdowns in the 2nd half. This same game against KC the defense gave up 0 points in the 2nd half. The logic just doesn't add up.

I whole-heartedly agree that he seems to not be able to handle the pressure of the playoffs, but we can't just dismiss the HOU game as "oh they barely got in so it doesn't count and his defense only gave up 3 points". Like it or not, he took a step forward in the HOU game and then regressed to his mean against KC. If we want, we can shift the goalposts from "Lamar can't play during the playoffs" to "Lamar can't handle elite teams in the playoffs".

Either way, I think his performance against KC eliminated everything good he did against HOU and brought up the same doubts as people had before the playoffs even started this year.

I agree. Before the Houston game, the Texans were seen as a potential threat, awesome QB, amazingly well-coached defense. After, they became playoff fodder, waste of a spot, doesn’t even count as a win. It’s ridiculous.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, notthatbluestuff said:

I agree. Before the Houston game, the Texans were seen as a potential threat, awesome QB, amazingly well-coached defense. After, they became playoff fodder, waste of a spot, doesn’t even count as a win. It’s ridiculous.

They were always playoff fodder. Houston wasn’t a SB contending team. 

Not saying the W shouldn’t count, but let’s not over-correct here. 

[notthatbluestuff]

3 minutes ago, Soko said:

They were always playoff fodder. Houston wasn’t a SB contending team. 

Not saying the W shouldn’t count, but let’s not over-correct here. 

I'm not saying they were a SB contender but the pre- and postgame perception of that team was markedly different.

Or maybe I'm mistaking Ramster's pro wrestler jabbering for the opinions of the many.

[Thomas5737]

11 minutes ago, notthatbluestuff said:

I agree. Before the Houston game, the Texans were seen as a potential threat, awesome QB, amazingly well-coached defense. After, they became playoff fodder, waste of a spot, doesn’t even count as a win. It’s ridiculous.

I think the Ravens get credit for that game, it just wasn't a high pressure game for Lamar because the Texan offense only managed a 50 yard FG, otherwise they were shut out. 

Lamar (and the Ravens) play great with a lead. It fits their offense. Mahomes scared them early and it became a high pressure game. Harbaugh made them a one dimensional offense (two really, they were defending the Lamar run and pass) and the offense suffered. 

Harbaugh gets 80% of the blame from me. Lamar's issues were mostly a byproduct of Harbaugh's coaching. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

4 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

I think the Ravens get credit for that game, it just wasn't a high pressure game for Lamar because the Texan offense only managed a 50 yard FG, otherwise they were shut out. 

Lamar (and the Ravens) play great with a lead. It fits their offense. Mahomes scared them early and it became a high pressure game. Harbaugh made them a one dimensional offense (two really, they were defending the Lamar run and pass) and the offense suffered. 

Harbaugh gets 80% of the blame from me. Lamar's issues were mostly a byproduct of Harbaugh's coaching. 

It was a high pressure game for Lamar regardless of how the other team's offense did. The pressure was on HIM to perform at a high level. The Titans in 2019 weren't a Superbowl contending team either and they smoked us. In other words, what I'm trying to say is the pressure had nothing to do with HOU directly, it was the pressure of just him playing a good game in the playoffs, period - which he did.

This was Lamar's opportunity to perform like an elite QB, and in the 2nd half he did that and we all thought he turned a corner, only for the KC game to happen and now we're back to where we were before the playoffs even started.

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, Soko said:

Then I question where your concern is as far as the guy saying Lamar should hope to radically improve as a pocket passer? If he’s only good/very good now, then elevating to an elite passer should constitute a “radical improvement”.

Lamar improves incrementally year by year. I don't think he'll radically improve one year to the next, but every year he'll get better. The difference between 2018 Lamar and 2023 Lamar is radical, but the difference from year to year is not.

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“When they have a healthy season” - that’s the problem. They hardly ever do. You’re forgoing the durability part in order to justify having an elite, outlier season (most of their years in their 30s they either didn’t play, were hurt, or played badly). That makes them horrible examples, because you’re trying to use single outlier seasons as a minimum standard, while ignoring all the issues they had performing on the field outside of those outliers.

It's helpful to find comps when projecting a player's future. There are a host of people on this site who say that Lamar will decline now that he is getting into his later 20s. But it's clear that "running QBs" can develop as passers into their 30s, if their body holds up.

Given the protections in place for QBs now, and the fact that Lamar avoids big hits, and Lamar's history of 0 serious injuries and surgeries, and advances in health science, I'm good with assuming he'll be relatively healthy into his 30s and maintain his athleticism.

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Vick’s biggest issue was his durability, in this sense. After his great season with Philly, I don’t see how the prison stint mattered going forward. Like, Vick didn’t get hurt/suck in 2011 because he missed the 2007/2008 seasons. He had an outlier season in 2010 (one in which he also battled injuries) and then fell back down to earth.

IMO Prison makes it hard to maintain peak athletic performance. You are getting bad nutrition and no competition. Jamal Lewis was never the same out of prison because he couldn't properly rehab an injury.

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Jackson rushes more than anyone in this discussion. 

Plenty of QBs have played well into their 30s, well before all of this medical innovation.

 

I've watched every snap of his career, I don't think he's particularly at risk for an injury. I don't see him taking bad hits, he's got great awareness and knows when to get down.

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While you may believe that Lamar’s career will go longer as a result of medical innovation, that opinion holds about as much weight as those who believe Lamar will run into durability issues as he ages.

Yah, no sh*t. We are all projecting into the future, and making the best argument we can make based on available evidence.

Lamar is 1 of 1, so comps are going to be tricky.

[El Ramster]

@AngusMcFife I love your fire and passion baby. Never lose it. Are you 16 or 32? Anyway, Houston was a rookie team lol. If you want credit sure. But as the one seed you’re supposed to and are expected to dominate those types of teams. The fact that the ravens were questioned and it was 50-50 should  tell you a lot. When is a first seed ever not expected to blow a team off their bye? 100% of them. Asking credit for beating a bad team is like getting mad because no said happy birthday at your job, and that’s the only thing you look forward to all year. 

.

[AngusMcFife]

12 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

@AngusMcFife I love your fire and passion baby. Never lose it. Are you 16 or 32? Anyway, Houston was a rookie team lol. If you want credit sure. But as the one seed you’re supposed to and are expected to dominate those types of teams. The fact that the ravens were questioned and it was 50-50 should  tell you a lot. When is a first seed ever not expected to blow a team off their bye? 100% of them. Asking credit for beating a bad team is like getting mad because no said happy birthday at your job, and that’s the only thing you look forward to all year. 

.

Ravens were favored by 9.5 against Houston, not sure where you are getting 50/50.

[El Ramster]

38 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Ravens were favored by 9.5 against Houston, not sure where you are getting 50/50.

Fans baby fans.

[Soko]

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar improves incrementally year by year. I don't think he'll radically improve one year to the next, but every year he'll get better. The difference between 2018 Lamar and 2023 Lamar is radical, but the difference from year to year is not.

Cool. That has nothing to do with what I, or the other guy, said. What is your contention with “Lamar should improve radically as a passer”, if you’re saying he’s only good/very good, and not elite? You unsurprisingly got defensive and asked the guy to give you specific stats to reach that level, when you yourself basically outlined where he could go in order to improve. He’s not an elite passer. He could become one. Whatever standard you want to use (P.S. no one is going to use passer rating as the end-all), your opinion was that Lamar’s not there yet. Playing both sides of the fence.

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

It's helpful to find comps when projecting a player's future. There are a host of people on this site who say that Lamar will decline now that he is getting into his later 20s. But it's clear that "running QBs" can develop as passers into their 30s, if their body holds up.

It’s actually not, at all. “Player X can do this because Player Y did it”, yeah, no. Thousands of others haven’t done it. 

“If their body holds up”, yeaaaah you ignore everything (like the outlier seasons/awful durability of the guys you mentioned), so I’m not expecting much at this point. 

Vick - had one good season at 30 years old, then regressed and couldn’t stay healthy for the rest of his 30s. Never played 16 games past 30, including the outlier season.

Cunningham - had one good season at 35, was not good/healthy enough to start for the rest of his 30s. Never played 16 games past 30, including the outlier season. 

Newton - had one healthy season after turning 30, was awful. Never played 16 games past 30.

Young - didn’t even take the starting job until after turning 30.

So yeah, your examples are terrible, and if anything only support that mobile QBs are capable of having one good season past 30 before crashing back down to earth. Will that happen to Lamar? Who knows. But bringing these guys up as if they prove anything in favor of longevity, is a joke.

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Given the protections in place for QBs now, and the fact that Lamar avoids big hits, and Lamar's history of 0 serious injuries and surgeries, and advances in health science, I'm good with assuming he'll be relatively healthy into his 30s and maintain his athleticism.

Cool. Your own examples don’t favor the point you’re trying to make. You can hope and believe what you’d like. I’m not even pushing back on your final point, just highlighting how stupid it is to mention Vick, Cunningham, and Young (and unsurprisingly, reverse cherry pick Cam out of that tiny sample size).

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

IMO Prison makes it hard to maintain peak athletic performance. You are getting bad nutrition and no competition. Jamal Lewis was never the same out of prison because he couldn't properly rehab an injury.

Vick’s peak as a pocket passer came after prison. There’s no reason prison 3 years ago would hurt that ability when it was there only 1 year beforehand. Vick fell back down to earth because he wasn’t a good QB.

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I've watched every snap of his career, I don't think he's particularly at risk for an injury. I don't see him taking bad hits, he's got great awareness and knows when to get down.

More hits = more risk. Taking more hits isn’t a good thing.

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Yah, no sh*t. We are all projecting into the future, and making the best argument we can make based on available evidence.

The actual “available evidence” you brought up actually hurts your hopes and dreams. 

55 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Lamar is 1 of 1, so comps are going to be tricky.

You’re the one that tried to make them. 

[WizeGuy]

These questions always come off as hot takes after a loss. 

It's rough in the AFC for any QB not named Mahomes whose biggest advantage is being paired with an elite HC. Most insanely skilled QBs don't have that luxury. It's really a spectacle what that team is pulling off right now. 

Edited January 30 by WizeGuy

[MWil23]

I think it’s fair to say Lamar’s prime won’t be what other quarterbacks are because of his game being 100% contingent upon his athleticism and if it happens it’ll have to happen in the next 4-6 years or it won’t happen at all probably.

[El Ramster]

Can I ask why Harbaugh shouldn’t be fired? He’s like the Mike Tomlin and every time he loses he hides behind a prayer and god. My man was dancing sinfully in the locker room. Fakest guy in the NFL. He really shouldn’t be fire as he’s a great culture builder. But how many more of these blown farts can he take? Legit never on the hot seat. Guess that’s what winning the flukiest sb ever gets you. Flacco was something magical! a few people died for that sacrifice.