Viable Centers by Round

[Steeler Hitman]

7 hours ago, rlon said:

Rd. 1 Jackson Powers-Johnson, Oregon - Big, powerful and athletic. I think someone will try and jump the Steelers for this pick, though the Steelers will no doubt send out some confusing vibes as to who their preference is at 20. I think they could be a lot ‘bigger’ on Mims and Van Pran than people think(1 and 3?). JPJ definitely has the potential to be a dominant mover of people, bouncer type with athleticism. Passing on him could lead to years of regret, from a few of us on this board at least (see Creed Humphrey).

Rd. 2 Zach Frazier, West Virginia - Underrated athleticism, in the mold of former Steeler OCs, capable of getting out there and holding leverage if not a dominant mover of people (wrestling them to stalemates). A little short for my taste, arm length will be an important measurement, but he can move and get to the second level without a problem.

Rd. 3 Sedrick Van Pran, Georgia - Good fit for zone scheme, experienced and intelligent player who is solid in pretty much all areas but won’t wow you. He seems to be slipping, many have him available in the third, and I have seen more and more fourth round designations as of late. Not sure I agree with either of those values, as I think he may have gone from overrated to underrated in a matter of a month. I think the floor is high, meaning solid NFL starter for years, which is well beyond what Mason Cole brings. Not as athletic as Pouncey but probably better moving stout players to a degree.

Rd. 4 Beaux Limmer, Arkansas - Taller and leaner than most of these prospects, which follows that he might be the best pass blocker. Head on a swivel, good adjuster going into tax season. Not as heavy in the pants as I’d like, but the last of acceptable centers (I left out Barton because I really don’t know what he is yet, though he will likely go in the first two rounds).

 

I don’t really have any acceptable players for the Steelers after this, as they are not looking for a backup. Basically, we have two shrimps next and then a host of questionable guys.

Good post  and thanks for the research. The Center position is feast or famine this year. Last year you had no real stud like JPJ, but overall more solid prospects who had upside to develop. John Micheal "Jingle Heimer" Schmidt last year.

6 hours ago, rlon said:

I just want to add to my comments on Frazier…I think he is a subtle and smooth mover, and people get the impression that the major concern is his athleticism. I am more concerned about his arm length and pass protection.

With IOL it is more about the punch. They (short armed OL) kick inside typically because they don't have long arms. That was the thing with Peter Skoronski last year. He has short arms, but still had a solid rookie season. These players who are wrestlers use positioning, leverage, quickness, punch, and relentlessness (staying engaged) to help win. I don't see arm length as an issue for Frazier. He has a motor and hustle, that will serve him well.

That looks on tape like it could be problematic in the pros, as he seems to have to reset his hands a lot due to the arm length disadvantage. He was good at the reset and then anchoring, but he likely would have already lost the battle to elite NFL DTs. 

I saw a stat about WVU rushing game on a podcast where WVU rushed for under 75 yards per game Frazier's rookie season and it progressively went up to more than 200+ his senior year. I get the transition between college and pros, but give me some guys with a mauling mentality and hustle.  The Steelers need guys like this. I have no issues with Frazier being the #2 choice at center.

 

6 hours ago, warfelg said:

RD1 - JPJ

Late2/Early 3 - Frazier and SVP

I think both of these guys are gone by the end of round two.

Rd 4 - Zak Zitner, I know he's injured but he was really good

Rd 6 - Coleman, Glaze, McCormick (Mason, South Dakota State)

Now, there's the interesting part of this draft - there's legit 3 guys who can really change this ranking.

Graham Barton - I hasn't played C, however if he shows he can in the combine he could jump up there.  He's got short arms so he's going to kick inside no matter what, and he's smart enough to handle the position.

I actually like him at LT. He has pretty good footwork, and I am afraid of another Kendrick Green experiment.

Cooper Beebe - A G at KSU, but he has some C ability.  Again, the question is can he look good snapping the ball and getting out of the stance to be in position.

Christian Haynes - Copy and paste what was said for Beebe.

SO there's 3 guys in this draft who could show in the combine process that they have some C ability and could really change the tone of the draft if people like what they see from that.

If JPJ is there, I am taking a dominant talent who looks like he has the makings of a future all pro. Webster, Dawson, Hastings, Pouncey, JPP?

6 hours ago, Blitzburgh said:

I think SVP is going to jump back up boards after the combine.  I think the fact he didn’t t play in the senior bowl caused him to drop amongst the media.  Unless he has some type of red flag whether it be size, speed, or character I think he’ll be a 2nd guy.

I could see this. I love the top two guys. This guy would not be a bad bronze metal for me. I want the gold though.

3 hours ago, rlon said:

I never understood why Daniels wasn’t made a left guard or center. Isaac now, and Dotson before him, seem more comfortable on the right.

For some reason the Steelers like to shuffle and shift guys all over the place. Dotson played there early because of DeCastro. He actually looked good at LG. His play, attitude, whatever, seemed to change after his rookie season. His work ethic, hustle, and other things were questioned.

3 hours ago, warfelg said:

From what I understand, while center might be Daniels ‘best’ place there are snapping issues with him.  He’s a slower snapper, tends to miss high, and it’s as quick out of his stance.

We've seen enough of bad snaps. Just no. Get a real center.

He’s more natural on the right side than left side.  His hips and right hand are stronger, which you would want out there.  But he is flexible enough to move left if you want him to.

Most people just believe that if he played LG, why not just put him there. They could have moved Dotson back to RG. They seem to be keeping Moore at LT and he feels more comfortable there.

Dodson can say everything he wants about being more comfortable on the right - in the end he played injured A LOT which can impact that.  He had a foot/ankle injury in 2021, core injury in 2022.  Then with Daniels and Semu coming in it was Herbig with L/R ability, a bad Green, or a oft injured Dotson all fighting for the backup spot.

Hindsight is always x-ray vision.  I am happy for Dotson, but he had his chances here and didn't make the most of it. Good luck!

 

2 hours ago, jebrick said:

Two of the best centers in the NFL have 32" arms.  It is not a big a deal at IOL as people make.

Agreed! See above explanation. You obviously like longer arms, but a lot of these IOL use other talents. It hurts more in pass protection somewhat, but in run blocking, not so much.

[3rivers]

15 hours ago, warfelg said:

RD1 - JPJ

Late2/Early 3 - Frazier and SVP

Rd 4 - Zak Zitner, I know he's injured but he was really good

Rd 6 - Coleman, Glaze, McCormick (Mason, South Dakota State)

Now, there's the interesting part of this draft - there's legit 3 guys who can really change this ranking.

Graham Barton - I hasn't played C, however if he shows he can in the combine he could jump up there.  He's got short arms so he's going to kick inside no matter what, and he's smart enough to handle the position.

Cooper Beebe - A G at KSU, but he has some C ability.  Again, the question is can he look good snapping the ball and getting out of the stance to be in position.

Christian Haynes - Copy and paste what was said for Beebe.

SO there's 3 guys in this draft who could show in the combine process that they have some C ability and could really change the tone of the draft if people like what they see from that.

whats better for this team

RD1 C, the RD2 OT or vice versa ?

[mwalker]

6 hours ago, 3rivers said:

whats better for this team

RD1 C, the RD2 OT or vice versa ?

Depends on the players.

I've said here before, but I believe getting two of the below, in any order, is essential.

OT - J.Latham, T.Fuaga, T.Guyton, A.Mims, K.Suamataia, P.Paul,
OC - J. Powers Johnson, Z.Frazier, S. Van Pran

I think trying someone for the first time at OC is a mistake we've made before. 
Z.Zinter was an OG, a good one. G.Barton (who I love as a guard) hasn't played OC for too long.

So again, in my opinion, the best pick in RD 1 based on what we know today - JPJ at OC or J.Latham/T.Fuaga at OT.

 

 

Edited February 19 by mwalker

[rlon]

1 hour ago, mwalker said:

Depends on the players.

I've said here before, but I believe getting two of the below, in any order, is essential.

OT - J.Latham, T.Fuaga, T.Guyton, A.Mims, K.Suamataia, P.Paul,
OC - J. Powers Johnson, Z.Frazier, S. Van Pran

I think trying someone for the first time at OC is a mistake we've made before. 
Z.Zinter was an OG, a good one. G.Barton (who I love as a guard) hasn't played OC for too long.

So again, in my opinion, the best pick in RD 1 based on what we know today - JPJ at OC or J.Latham/T.Fuaga at OT.

 

 

I'm with that...I feel Latham will rise and Fuaga will maintain value. I like JPJ, then Paul...or go Christian Jones in the 4th(?).

[JustPlainNasty]

I have a strong feeling Christian Haynes could be a very good center. He reminds me of Rodney Hudson. Rodney was a Guard at FSU, a great one at that.  As I am aware he never played Center at FSU. I had never really seen anybody block like Rodney and really nobody has come along quite like him. Haynes doesn't stand alone on and island quite like Hudson would, but he has a very similar build  which can be seen without even looking at the numbers but he also just looks a good bit like him blocking. I think worst case scenario you get an outstanding Guard if you take Haynes. If you feel he can play center to me he is not far behind JPJ. JPJ is not a great snapper, hopefully he can improve (Frazier and Van Prann are easily the most consistent there) but I believe he only has one year at center as well ? 

I realize everybody is a bit gun shy since K Greene but Greene was a decent guard at Illinois who played center a few times. Haynes is definitely a better pedigree. 

Van Prann needs work. All those Georgia boys have not very good habits and/or are unrefined. He snaps very well though. 

Beaux Limmer doesnt snap great, hes ok at it. He has had success at OG and is very strong. He doesnt have near the bad technique and habits of Van Prann from what Ive seen. Limmer also only played this year at center. 

I think its probably a good idea to prepare with the mentality that whoever they draft may sit a few games just like everyone else has recently. I think one of the reasons for that is saving them a bit from the rookie wall as much as it is easing them into becoming a professional by experiencing and watching for a bit.  Dermontti Dawson played a few games at Right Guard his rookie season while Iron Mike played his last season in the burgh. He then went on to start 16 games for 10 straight seasons. 

 

It would be very interesting to go Tyler Guyton in the 1st and then grab Haynes in the 2nd. Tomlin was very intrigued with Guyton at the Senior Bowl and Haynes and Guyton were outstanding in pairs there. I believe it was mentioned they workout at the same place for their draft prep, so they are very familiar with each other and it showed.

 

Edited February 20 by JustPlainNasty

[mwalker]

6 hours ago, JustPlainNasty said:

I have a strong feeling Christian Haynes could be a very good center. He reminds me of Rodney Hudson. Rodney was a Guard at FSU, a great one at that.  As I am aware he never played Center at FSU. I had never really seen anybody block like Rodney and really nobody has come along quite like him. Haynes doesn't stand alone on and island quite like Hudson would, but he has a very similar build  which can be seen without even looking at the numbers but he also just looks a good bit like him blocking. I think worst case scenario you get an outstanding Guard if you take Haynes. If you feel he can play center to me he is not far behind JPJ. JPJ is not a great snapper, hopefully he can improve (Frazier and Van Prann are easily the most consistent there) but I believe he only has one year at center as well ? 

I realize everybody is a bit gun shy since K Greene but Greene was a decent guard at Illinois who played center a few times. Haynes is definitely a better pedigree. 

Van Prann needs work. All those Georgia boys have not very good habits and/or are unrefined. He snaps very well though. 

Beaux Limmer doesnt snap great, hes ok at it. He has had success at OG and is very strong. He doesnt have near the bad technique and habits of Van Prann from what Ive seen. Limmer also only played this year at center. 

I think its probably a good idea to prepare with the mentality that whoever they draft may sit a few games just like everyone else has recently. I think one of the reasons for that is saving them a bit from the rookie wall as much as it is easing them into becoming a professional by experiencing and watching for a bit.  Dermontti Dawson played a few games at Right Guard his rookie season while Iron Mike played his last season in the burgh. He then went on to start 16 games for 10 straight seasons. 

 

It would be very interesting to go Tyler Guyton in the 1st and then grab Haynes in the 2nd. Tomlin was very intrigued with Guyton at the Senior Bowl and Haynes and Guyton were outstanding in pairs there. I believe it was mentioned they workout at the same place for their draft prep, so they are very familiar with each other and it showed.

 

You might be right on Haynes, but this team can't gamble at OC again like they did with K.Green.
Get a proven starter not a projection, in my opinion, even more so since we've made this mistake before.

[warfelg]

2 hours ago, mwalker said:

You might be right on Haynes, but this team can't gamble at OC again like they did with K.Green.
Get a proven starter not a projection, in my opinion, even more so since we've made this mistake before.

The thing with Green was he was a project no matter what, he needed a year to get into an NFL diet program, was a move blocker, and needed to learn a few extra things about playing C.

No all of these guys that can be C flexible are going to fight an uphill battle like Green.  When a guy like Haynes is day 1 starter capable at guard, the question would be what is his snap speed like and hows his balance off of that.  Green always struggled staying upright and it got worse because he leaned on the ball when snapping rather than be light on the ball.

If you get a guy like Barton or Haynes or Beebe, we're in a better position of knowing that Cole can start for a little bit while that guy you draft learns to snap.  The issue Green had was we didn't have someone who could do that.  He needed to be in right away because Finney isn't that great - heck he was out of the NFL after that year.  ANd Haussenhauer, who's out of the NFL now too.

[Steeler Hitman]

@mwalker I am with you on making the Center position a priority. I suggested that the Steelers draft some guys who could have sat for a year and learned.  We discussed the struggles that Pouncey had as he began to get older and teams learned to put a big body in front of him. Pouncey was a good technician and had great feet, but struggled against powerful NG/DT types later in his career. I suggested Tyler Biadasz and Llyod Cushenberry, and I loved Landon Dickerson despite his knee problems,  Quinn Mienerz was my sleeper man crush and the Steelers passed on him to draft a wanna-be Pouncey hopeful in Green.  Green had quickness, was a former wrestler, and had no problem scrapping. The problem was his technique and he was a bit light in the butt (strength-wise). Last year the hope was potentially John Michael Schmitz. After taking JOnes, JP Jr., and Benton, it is hard to argue, that they again missed out on another good Center prospect that would have fixed the position. I know that you can't get everybody and sometimes the draft value isn't there (If Landon Dickerson doesn't have knee issues, I take the 10-12 year Center over the 5-7 year RB). I even understood Frieiermuth over Humphrey somewhat from draft value.  But I then would have taken the third-best Center in Mienerz.  Both Meinerz and Dickerson would have been the starting Center and not OG on the Steelers.  Woulda, coulda, shoulda.....

[jebrick]

Quinn Mienerz is rated as a bust so far so YMMV

[3rivers]

11 hours ago, warfelg said:

The thing with Green was he was a project no matter what, he needed a year to get into an NFL diet program, was a move blocker, and needed to learn a few extra things about playing C.

No all of these guys that can be C flexible are going to fight an uphill battle like Green.  When a guy like Haynes is day 1 starter capable at guard, the question would be what is his snap speed like and hows his balance off of that.  Green always struggled staying upright and it got worse because he leaned on the ball when snapping rather than be light on the ball.

If you get a guy like Barton or Haynes or Beebe, we're in a better position of knowing that Cole can start for a little bit while that guy you draft learns to snap.  The issue Green had was we didn't have someone who could do that.  He needed to be in right away because Finney isn't that great - heck he was out of the NFL after that year.  ANd Haussenhauer, who's out of the NFL now too.

this team needs to stop converting players and having them out of position . 

Just draft the best C they can in either RD1 or RD2 and go from there.   If it's Frazier or SVP in RD2, then draft them and be set at C for the next 10 years.  Done

 

and of course sign  Sneed for anything near this

https://steelersnow.com/pittsburgh-steelers-ljarius-sneed-contract-signing-cost/

cut ogunjobi and paterson and have some $ left over and  maybe slide down a few spots on that dreaded most expensive defence list , and in the process get MUCH better 

[Steeler Hitman]

On 2/20/2024 at 10:55 AM, jebrick said:

Quinn Mienerz is rated as a bust so far so YMMV

@jebrick Rated a bust by who?

I have never heard that my friend. He is certainly not Creed Humphrey, but he isn't Mason Cole either.  In fact, I don't think that he has even played a single game at Center.  Lloyd Cushenberry has been the starter. Now, I have heard that Cushenberry was a bit of a disappointment, but this is news to me on Meinerz. I actually didn't think Cushenberry has played poorly.

Now, I am not a big new age stats guy like the PFF gurus, but he's a mauler in the run game and is not horrible in pass protector. He would have been a much better option than Kendrick Greene. Quinn has been a starter since week 9 of his rookie season.  Munchak left Denver last year too, so maybe there is a connection if in fact his play did actually dip?

My coaching man crush!

[mwalker]

On 2/21/2024 at 11:15 AM, 3rivers said:

this team needs to stop converting players and having them out of position . 

Just draft the best C they can in either RD1 or RD2 and go from there.   If it's Frazier or SVP in RD2, then draft them and be set at C for the next 10 years.  Done

 

and of course sign  Sneed for anything near this

https://steelersnow.com/pittsburgh-steelers-ljarius-sneed-contract-signing-cost/

cut ogunjobi and paterson and have some $ left over and  maybe slide down a few spots on that dreaded most expensive defence list , and in the process get MUCH better 

yes, yes and yes

[Steeler Hitman]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:15 PM, 3rivers said:

this team needs to stop converting players and having them out of position.

Facts!!! 100%

Just draft the best C they can in either RD1 or RD2 and go from there.   If it's Frazier or SVP in RD2, then draft them and be set at C for the next 10 years.  Done

More facts. We are in this position because we had no plan B to Pouncey. Despite the fact that retired before the Steelers anticipated/ wanted, the Steelers had no plan B.

and of course sign  Sneed for anything near this

https://steelersnow.com/pittsburgh-steelers-ljarius-sneed-contract-signing-cost/

A lot of this is going to be dependent on what the Chiefs do with their tag. Ditto with Jaylon Johnson with the Bears. Both would be great additions to the Steelers secondary despite adding to the already very expensive defense.

cut ogunjobi and paterson and have some $ left over and  maybe slide down a few spots on that dreaded most expensive defense list , and in the process get MUCH better 

I think your assessments are pretty spot on. My only concern is the DL would be razor thin.
You and others have swayed me to cut these two players.  I think cutting or restructuring one or both could also be an option for depth/security. Not sure that either player would want that, so cut if necessary.

DL basically is left with an aging Cam and a newbie in Benton. You know how I feel about being able to stop the run, and to do that you need some good and stout DL's. Still a lot of ???? there from the standpoint of depth, experience, and ability.  Like you always say:

Armon Watts, Montravis Adams, Isaiahh Loudermilk, Renell Wren, and DeMarvin Leal do not bring back memories of the Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh fronts.

 

[warfelg]

27 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

Facts!!! 100%

You can change positions of players, but you need two things with that.  One they need to show the ability to have it.  In the case of G->C they have to have really quick hands and excellent balance.  Two you need to not have them start right away.  That's actually been a bigger issues.

On top of that, I know that Green and Dotson have been favorite targets of this.  1 - Green.  It's not like he was playing any better in Houston.  He was still getting rag dolled, ending up on his backside, whiffing blocks.  The only thing that helped him 'look' good there is he wasn't snapping so it was easier to put him on the move. 

With Dotson - it's not that he was on the wrong side, and though he might have attributed it to that, health is the major thing here.  To start the 2021 season he was actually really good. 2020 - Knee in preseason, shoulder in week 15.  2021 - Oct 3 partially torn hip flexor he played through, Nov 14 grade 1 high ankle sprain that landed him on IR.  2022 - Aug 8 ankle injury, week 10 abdomen (described as pulled groin at times). 2023 - no injuries.

The reason these things are coming up is PFF grades.  Which don't mean much when it comes to OL play.

27 minutes ago, Steeler Hitman said:

More facts. We are in this position because we had no plan B to Pouncey. Despite the fact that retired before the Steelers anticipated/ wanted, the Steelers had no plan B.

Most of us that have issues with all kinds of things with this team starts with this.  Blame it on what you want, the cap, poor drafting, appeasing Ben, not wanting to upset players.  The one that doesn't really sit is the "couldn't anticipate them retiring" - because all positions have ages where the downside starts.

 

[Steeler Hitman]

4 minutes ago, warfelg said:

You can change positions of players, but you need two things with that.  One they need to show the ability to have it.  In the case of G->C they have to have really quick hands and excellent balance.  Two you need to not have them start right away.  That's actually been a bigger issues.

My biggest issue is that it (Center position) was ignored or not prioritized for development.  JC Haussenhauser proved that his ceiling was as a lower tier back-up.  So many players that were true Centers could have been targeted and developed were not.

On top of that, I know that Green and Dotson have been favorite targets of this.  1 - Green.  It's not like he was playing any better in Houston.  He was still getting rag dolled, ending up on his backside, whiffing blocks.  The only thing that helped him 'look' good there is he wasn't snapping so it was easier to put him on the move. 

I never liked the pick. I remember doing some research after Jebrick or JustPlainNasty gave some insight on the pick. I liked he was a wrestler, he had a tough demeanor, and could pull. I get it, everyone makes mistakes. I just don't think he was a good fit. They were trying to make him into a "bargain pick" Pouncey. 

With Dotson - it's not that he was on the wrong side, and though he might have attributed it to that, health is the major thing here.  To start the 2021 season he was actually really good. 2020 - Knee in preseason, shoulder in week 15.  2021 - Oct 3 partially torn hip flexor he played through, Nov 14 grade 1 high ankle sprain that landed him on IR.  2022 - Aug 8 ankle injury, week 10 abdomen (described as pulled groin at times). 2023 - no injuries.

Agreed. Dotson also had some maturity issues as well. He had some good plays as a rookie and expected the position to be handed to him the next year and people questioned his work ethic, desire, and attitude.

The reason these things are coming up is PFF grades.  Which don't mean much when it comes to OL play.

I am honestly trying to understand some things with PFF grades. Analytics are good with some things, but FACTS are another. You can assess or see something one way, but sometimes getting pancaked is just getting pancaked. I am sure TJ Watt agrees with me. 😉

Most of us that have issues with all kinds of things with this team starts with this.  Blame it on what you want, the cap, poor drafting, appeasing Ben, not wanting to upset players.  The one that doesn't really sit is the "couldn't anticipate them retiring" - because all positions have ages where the downside starts.

Big mistake made in business and life.  Pouncey was a fixture like Ben.  They just didn't have a sense of urgency to have a potential replacement. They are now at a point where the OL play suffered and they must pull the trigger via draft, free agency, or both.