***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

[Heinz D.]

3 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Like seriously? I know I brought this up earlier in the thread. did you not notice that all the major villains thus far have been white Male leads in every new Star Wars movie thus far? The only exception being Daarth Maul and that was only a brief cameo appearance. It's to spread tension and hate against a particular group. Like how all the heroes have been of a minority group. The only one they couldnt get around was Han himself in Solo. 

Disney's plan is to spread tension and hate? Interesting.

Why would that be their plan? 

And...who were the major villains in the original trilogy? If you think Lucas accidentally  had the Imperials all be white males, while the Rebels were a mish-mash of you name it, you're kidding yourself, dude...

[MacReady]

10 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Disney's plan is to spread tension and hate? Interesting.

Why would that be their plan? 

And...who were the major villains in the original trilogy? If you think Lucas accidentally  had the Imperials all be white males, while the Rebels were a mish-mash of you name it, you're kidding yourself, dude...

Lol.  I see your horrible attempt at injecting social justice warrioring into Star Wars and trying to make it look like Star Wars has always been about social justice issues and I raise you...

Darth Vader is black and the villain up until he returns to being white, at which point he is good again. 

Your attempt at making it seem like Star Wars has always been some anti-white SJW trilogy is the lamest of the lamest of the lamest arguments and it makes me glad this sort of thing can't be discussed here. 

[JonStark]

11 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Lol.  I see your horrible attempt at injecting social justice warrioring into Star Wars and trying to make it look like Star Wars has always been about social justice issues and I raise you...

Darth Vader is black and the villain up until he returns to being white, at which point he is good again. 

Your attempt at making it seem like Star Wars has always been some anti-white SJW trilogy is the lamest of the lamest of the lamest arguments and it makes me glad this sort of thing can't be discussed here. 

@HorizontoZenith is my dark knight for this thread.

I'm too lazy to keep going back and for with the haters for this movie, so I'll let him do it any just keep liking his posts. 

[fretgod99]

13 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Lol.  I see your horrible attempt at injecting social justice warrioring into Star Wars and trying to make it look like Star Wars has always been about social justice issues and I raise you...

Darth Vader is black and the villain up until he returns to being white, at which point he is good again. 

Your attempt at making it seem like Star Wars has always been some anti-white SJW trilogy is the lamest of the lamest of the lamest arguments and it makes me glad this sort of thing can't be discussed here. 

Not “white male” as in today’s issues. The Empire is generally modelled after Nazi Germany. Lucas was pretty clear on that. And you know Nazis had that whole thing about racial purity and whatnot. So, even though you were trying to call him out, he’s got a point. But it also has to do with major roles historically tending overwhelmingly to go to white males. Though that’s a separate matter we don’t need to get into here.

And Calvert railing against female leads. I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

[MacReady]

Just now, fretgod99 said:

Not “white male” as in today’s issues. The Empire is generally modelled after Nazi Germany. Lucas was pretty clear on that. And you know Nazis had that whole thing about racial purity and whatnot. So, even though you were trying to call him out, he’s got a point. But it also has to do with major roles historically tending overwhelmingly to go to white males. Though that’s a separate matter we don’t need to get into here.

And Calvert railing against female leads. I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

The point is that the original Star Wars trilogy was not preaching SJW talking points while the new one is. 

Nobody cares about well-written female leads.  I guess a tiny sect of blatantly sexist people do, but 99% of the population doesn't care about well-written female leads or well-written female characters.  There's a well-established history of beloved science fiction, action, horror, drama, comedy, fantasy and every other genre of filmmaking that proves this with a brilliant history of film that celebrates these well-written characters.

The complaint, which is legitimate, is with these poorly written characters made simply to cater to the whole thing.  Laura Dern's character was a crap character.  Rose was a crap character.  A very strong argument could be made that Rey is a poorly written character.  Name one fault with Rey.  Rey is a Maggie Sue character.  That's a fact.  Leia was not.  The complaints are legitimate. 

[SteelKing728]

1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

The point is that the original Star Wars trilogy was not preaching SJW talking points while the new one is. 

Nobody cares about well-written female leads.  I guess a tiny sect of blatantly sexist people do, but 99% of the population doesn't care about well-written female leads or well-written female characters.  There's a well-established history of beloved science fiction, action, horror, drama, comedy, fantasy and every other genre of filmmaking that proves this with a brilliant history of film that celebrates these well-written characters.

The complaint, which is legitimate, is with these poorly written characters made simply to cater to the whole thing.  Laura Dern's character was a crap character.  Rose was a crap character.  A very strong argument could be made that Rey is a poorly written character.  Name one fault with Rey.  Rey is a Maggie Sue character.  That's a fact.  Leia was not.  The complaints are legitimate. 

What is a Maggie Sue character? I tried looking it up and found nothing noteworthy

[fretgod99]

7 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

The point is that the original Star Wars trilogy was not preaching SJW talking points while the new one is. 

Nobody cares about well-written female leads.  I guess a tiny sect of blatantly sexist people do, but 99% of the population doesn't care about well-written female leads or well-written female characters.  There's a well-established history of beloved science fiction, action, horror, drama, comedy, fantasy and every other genre of filmmaking that proves this with a brilliant history of film that celebrates these well-written characters.

The complaint, which is legitimate, is with these poorly written characters made simply to cater to the whole thing.  Laura Dern's character was a crap character.  Rose was a crap character.  A very strong argument could be made that Rey is a poorly written character.  Name one fault with Rey.  Rey is a Maggie Sue character.  That's a fact.  Leia was not.  The complaints are legitimate. 

Lulz. Sure.

Rey’s blatantly naive. It gets her into trouble. Name Leia’s faults or Riddley’s or any of the others. Holdo wasn’t a crap character. Rose was whatever, but hardly pushing any particular talking point re: women’s roles. So again, whatever.

I do wonder how many of these “classic” and “iconic” characters posters mention would be viewed significantly differently had those posters been around when they first came out. But again, whatever.

[Deadpulse]

Not sure what makes them crap characters. None of them are cardboard characters, they all have layers to them with a clear purpose in the plot and in the character development of our protagonists. 

 

You can not like them, that is 100% fine. However, just because you have that opinion doesnt make them bad characters. 

[sunnygsm]

Rose sucks because she didn't bring much to the table. Holdo was whatever. I don't think she was a great character, just a throwaway person in command. She had a role in Poe's development but I'm personally not a fan of that arc for other reasons.

I find Rey is the most compromised character. Disney could probably make her more interesting, but she's just overpowered. They have their female icon and they seem to refuse to give her proper flaws. That doesn't make for a great character (imo). 

[MacReady]

Rey is a Maggie Sue character, and you can't use naivete to argue against that. 

Holdo was a plot device who wasn't anything close to developed.  She was used to make you think she was a spy and she was a fold to Poe and that's it.

To say nothing about Rose and the actress's acting ability, I really can't say anything about Rose because she really had nothing going for her. 

And then there's Phasma.  What can be said about Phasma when the actress who played the character basically had one good thing to say about her.  She wasn't sexualized.  That's it.  If the best thing that can be said about a female character is that she wasn't sexualized...

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Why-Captain-Phasma-Kept-Her-Helmet-According-Gwendoline-Christie-113207.html

I was questioned about what made Leia a great character.  Please.  If you need me to explain how and why Leia was a better character than anything in the new trilogy, you never watched the original trilogy.  Commitment to her cause above all else, wittiness, cleverness, feisty attitude, loyalty, intelligence, leadership, toughness, bravery and a billion other qualities.  She wasn't a Maggie Sue, either.  She struggled with trust and faith, and she struggled with her feelings towards Han and Luke and the Resistance.  This was on full display in Empire Strikes Back when she was torn between Han and her Resistance responsibilities.  Her ability to make sacrifices for the greater cause (lying about the rebel base) and countless other reasons. 

There's a reason why she is regarded as the ultimate heroine.  What will be said about Rey thirty years from now?  Can you name one thing other than that she was super duper powerful, sweetly innocent and naive? 

[Deadpulse]

41 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Rey is a Maggie Sue character, and you can't use naivete to argue against that.

I dont agree with this, like, at all. In FA, Rey had a single minded focus of returning to Jahku of all places because she has this crippling need to be reunited with parents who abandoned her. She constantly looks to the past because she is afraid of herself and needs validation that she will be ok from her parents. Its one of the reasons why she pivots to Luke so hard, she needs someone to prop her up because she has crazy insecurities. In TLJ she calls Luke the resistance's only hope and when she finally gives up on him, she goes immediately to the horrible idea that Kylo Ren is the resistance's only hope. She has zero faith in herself, her abilities, or her impact on the wider conflict. Her entire mission in TLJ is to find a force user to turn the tide, it never even occurs to her that she should try. This is reinforced when Kylo picks at her insecurities in the throne room after the fight, going in on her parents. He knows this is her weakness and he uses it to try to pull her to his side. The biggest proof of her crippling insecurities and lack of self worth comes from, without hesitation, she goes to the "dark place" on the island because it called to her promising answers about her parents. She is so desperate for validation she risk her life and sanity time and again to get it from someone, anyone. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Deadpulse said:

I dont agree with this, like, at all.

All of this is true starting in TLJ, and I will grant it.  Now what makes her a strong heroine? 

Throughout the entire first one, she's lovably innocent and naive.  Her weaknesses start to show, but what is she really fighting for?  An admiration of the Resistance, or the Resistance, or herself? 

[Deadpulse]

16 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

All of this is true starting in TLJ, and I will grant it.  Now what makes her a strong heroine? 

Throughout the entire first one, she's lovably innocent and naive.  Her weaknesses start to show, but what is she really fighting for?  An admiration of the Resistance, or the Resistance, or herself? 

She openly admits she doesnt know her place in all this. The thing that pushes her, IMO (because Abrams never really quite gives her proper motivation), to go find Luke is mostly to find that mentor figure. The first time she considers NOT returning to Jahku is when Han offers her a job on Falcon with him. She clearly looks up to him and probably feels like he can be a father figure she desperately wants. I think his death ties her to Resistance more than anything. Her motivations, IMO, throughout this new trilogy is all self-serving due to the major flaw I explained above. It just so happens to mostly coincide with the interests of the Resistance. That being said, she clearly understands the threat of the First Order as she has seen it first hand.  

[Calvert28]

12 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

Not “white male” as in today’s issues. The Empire is generally modelled after Nazi Germany. Lucas was pretty clear on that. And you know Nazis had that whole thing about racial purity and whatnot. So, even though you were trying to call him out, he’s got a point. But it also has to do with major roles historically tending overwhelmingly to go to white males. Though that’s a separate matter we don’t need to get into here.

And Calvert railing against female leads. I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

You mean against terrible female leads? I go against all poorly written characters in general. I can go back and discuss Kylo and Rey and discuss their wasted potential thus far again.

But getting back to that, and what Heinz said. This isn't Lucas's driven story, Disney made that clear. They are not sticking to his original ideas on how the story is supposed to be. With the original trilogy Sure there was white washing. There was in all movies that happened literally 40 years ago which is why it makes no sense to compare politics of the different eras of how the movies were handled. At least there was consistency among their chosen there was good guys, and bad guys, all of whom were the same color. H/e flash forward, theres not diversity amongst good and evil alignments. There is just one alignment with all the bad guys on it of a specific stereotype. And then the good guys are everyone else fighting against this tyranny that just happens to go with todays political matters. Something that is discussed regularly.

[Calvert28]

On 7/6/2018 at 8:52 PM, Deadpulse said:

He wasn't told because he literally just disobeyed a direct order from Leia which wound up costing a LOT of lives and was subsequently demoted. The question you should be asking isnt, why wasn't he told about the plan, it should be why wasn't he thrown in the brig immediately. It's not like he was the only one not told, considering he had co-conspirators in a MUTINY (for real, how is this guy not imprisoned?) Clearly the top brass thought the plan should be need to know. 

Also, thats not the moral of the story. The moral is lives matter more than wins do. Poe is trying to win the entire time, and Holdo is trying to save lives. THATS THE POINT AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER GENDER. 

So you mean to tell me that all the major plans thus far in the series, that have been discussed in open groups amongst the heroes from the OT in attacking the Death Star and Endor, to this one attacking that planet Death Star and have all gotten cheers, claps, and good discussion. The first time they decide not to do this was in this movie among the last of the Resistance? As if that hasn't before. Rogue One I can actually understand cause they were going to kill her father so hush hush on that. But this was the first time they did this in the series. They have been in dire situations before, so why the hell now? Han was outright walking out on them in ESB letting everyone know about it too and they didn't throw him in the brig for treason and protect their secrets so don't give me that crap about needing to asking myself why is he still free.

It does, and it's sad you can't actually see that. They bring Holdo in for one movie to do these things, then she gets a heroic death. Why did they feel the need to create an entirely new freaking character to do something that could have just been filled by one of the remaining characters at the beginning of the story. LIKE ACKBAR! THAT'S WHAT YOU DON'T GET. She had nothing new to deliver to this story, she was just there to make a point. They killed off a character that has been there since the beginning a very popular character mind you to give the spotlight to a pointless character. They could have done without Leia flying in space. Hell even you guys agree with that. So why not cut that scene altogether and have Poe continue his last stand party with Leia which would have added more tension then the purple head lady crap, and have Ackbar go out with a bang going Kamikazi on Snoke's ship? BOOM, NO NEED FOR HOLDO. Her two biggest contributions divided simply amongst 2 other characters, we get a crappy scene taken out and a crappy character taken out. Everything meaningful she did, I summed up in one sentence, and showed how she could have been not even there to begin with. She was a forced character, as was Rose. Hell if they wanted diversity so badly they could have brought in Keri Russell for Benicio Del Toro's role as the hacker and served as both Rose and the Hacker. Cause the only point to Rose I saw was the Canto Bight scenes. Another thing that could have been removed. Make Finn not such a whiney punk again who just wants to run. Have him go find Keri someplace other then freaking Canto Bight. And again, 2 other problems solved. Have Keri betray the resistance, and it would still be the same movie even better without all the forced propaganda crap in it.