***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

[thebestever6]

11 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

I'm being intentionally obtuse with the Leia example. The point I'm trying to convey is that while this film did new things, some which are great, it opens the franchise up to inconsistencies. There are definitely a few that arose due to the choices made in TLJ. 

I'd say my main issue with the film was that it didn't have the conviction to push forward with some of the ideas they presented. They talked about ending the Jedi, but Luke closes by mentioning Rey (who has the flawed teachings of the Jedi in her possession). Of course there's still Ep IX. 

Got to agree with this I thought Kylo Rens character showed more vunerability in this movie than was needed.

1) Killing of Snoke while it helped his character a tad bit Rey having influence on him was kinda meh. I mean what is a film without a protagonist and antagonisti.

2) The show down with Luke. It kinda just looks like Luke toyed with Kylo so while it helps the send off of Luke it kinda minimizes Ren.

I feel like this movie was safe in the sense it didn't pick a direction. Hopefully J.J Abraham can save it.

 

[fretgod99]

So what you’re saying is you’d rather have the execs mettle to the point if strangling creativity to establish unbreakable continuity for an IP does doesn’t have a great deal of continuity to begin with, what with all the EU and everything else? I’ll opt for the better story telling. Perhaps there’s more of a happy medium, a balance if you will. But I don’t think most of what anybody is griping about in that regard is actually much of an issue.

[fretgod99]

6 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Got to agree with this I thought Kylo Rens character showed more vunerability in this movie than was needed.

1) Killing of Snoke while it helped his character a tad bit Rey having influence on him was kinda meh. I mean what is a film without a protagonist and antagonisti.

2) The show down with Luke. It kinda just looks like Luke toyed with Kylo so while it helps the send off of Luke it kinda minimizes Ren.

I feel like this movie was safe in the sense it didn't pick a direction. Hopefully J.J Abraham can save it.

 

Rey didn’t really have much influence on him though. Ren took out Snoke purely as an ambition thing. Literally the same reason every Sith apprentice has killed their master throughout history.

Why shouldn’t Luke be able to toy with Ren? Isn’t he a master and Ren still training?

[sunnygsm]

8 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

To be fair, that was the height of the Jedi’s power (in the movieverse) and, at that time, the Sith were in the middle of a plan that gave them almost complete control of just about the entire galaxy. So it’s not really as far fetched as you might think.

Eh. Bit of a stretch. The plan isn't really related to the force. 

5 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

So what you’re saying is you’d rather have the execs mettle to the point if strangling creativity to establish unbreakable continuity for an IP does doesn’t have a great deal of continuity to begin with, what with all the EU and everything else? I’ll opt for the better story telling. Perhaps there’s more of a happy medium, a balance if you will. But I don’t think most of what anybody is griping about in that regard is actually much of an issue.

Not at all. Just be mindful of it. The OT had the luxury of having nothing come before it. It's the burden of being the 8th film in a franchise. 

[fretgod99]

8 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

Not at all. Just be mindful of it. The OT had the luxury of having nothing come before it. It's the burden of being the 8th film in a franchise. 

That wasn’t in reference to your posts.

As for the Sith rise to power, it’s not really that much of a stretch. The Sith thing has always been manipulation and all that behind-the-scenes power and control. You think Palp set all that up with just governmental posturing? He manufactured a galaxy-wide war, essentially established both military forces participating in it, and all but wiped out all the remaining Jedi.

My point isn’t to say everything is always in perfect balance. But the idea behind the Force is that there is balance to it and, apparently, it seeks out that balance. Rey is a balance to Ren during this awakening of the Force. Since it’s by-and-large just her, it doesn’t seem too far fetched that she’d be relatively powerful in comparison.

Or not. Whatever. They’re movies about space samurai.

[thebestever6]

8 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Rey didn’t really have much influence on him though. Ren took out Snoke purely as an ambition thing. Literally the same reason every Sith apprentice has killed their master throughout history.

Why shouldn’t Luke be able to toy with Ren? Isn’t he a master and Ren still training?

He can Toy with Ren but I just felt like we didn't get much character progression from Ren. He's good, he's bad, he's angry who knows. Besides the snoke killing scene I thought Rens character was stronger in the last one. Maybe it was the music, the silence I just don't know.

And than Rey said she could see Rens future and he is good.  What was that about. 

The way snoke died was very stupid for a guy that can read minds and get killed off like that was just bad development. 

[sunnygsm]

2 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Or not. Whatever. They’re movies about space samurai.

We need some ninjas and geishas in there too.

[fretgod99]

13 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

He can Toy with Ren but I just felt like we didn't get much character progression from Ren. He's good, he's bad, he's angry who knows. Besides the snoke killing scene I thought Rens character was stronger in the last one. Maybe it was the music, the silence I just don't know.

And than Rey said she could see Rens future and he is good.  What was that about. 

The way snoke died was very stupid for a guy that can read minds and get killed off like that was just bad development. 

Really disagree on Ren. I thought his development in this was excellent. He is rounding into a great villain. People initially didn’t like him because he wasn’t established like Vader. But that’s the point: he wants to be Vader. He can’t start there or he’d have nowhere to grow. He saw his opportunity to grab power and he took it. And he’s also conflicted, killing his father still weighs on him and he couldn’t pull the trigger on his mother.

Showing Rey a future with a good Ben was Snoke toying with her. She took the bait. It’s the quintessential Sith manipulation play. Toy with their emotions to make them do what you want them to do, even if they ordinarily wouldn’t do it on their own. The Senate never would have given Palp emergency power without his scheming. Rey never would have walked into Snoke’s throne room without his scheming.

Snoke’s vision of the future was clouded by hubris. It’s the classic fatal flaw of powerful people throughout humanity’s long history of storytelling.

ETA: Not coincidentally, that hubris is the same thing that led to the downfall of the Jedi. After all, they too could read minds and they missed the Sith rising to power under their noses and, in one instance at least, in their own ranks. They were blinded by their own power. Yoda even mentioned it in Attack of the Clones.

[thebestever6]

9 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Really disagree on Ren. I thought his development in this was excellent. He is rounding into a great villain. People initially didn’t like him because he wasn’t established like Vader. But that’s the point: he wants to be Vader. He can’t start there or he’d have nowhere to grow. He saw his opportunity to grab power and he took it. And he’s also conflicted, killing his father still weighs on him and he couldn’t pull the trigger on his mother.

Showing Rey a future with a good Ben was Snoke toying with her. She took the bait. It’s the quintessential Sith manipulation play. Toy with their emotions to make them do what you want them to do, even if they ordinarily wouldn’t do it on their own. The Senate never would have given Palp emergency power without his scheming. Rey never would have walked into Snoke’s throne room without his scheming.

Snoke’s vision of the future was clouded by hubris. It’s the classic fatal flaw of powerful people throughout humanity’s long history of storytelling.

So Ren was conflicted with his mother but not his uncle or dad? Like it just doesn't make sense. And Rens foundation is garbage. People try to justify it by saying he's in the grey area, or he's having conflicting emotions. But what you have is an underdeveloped villian.

Luke saw nothing but darkness in Ren. He should have no conflicting emotions. It makes no sense. So Luke sees a Dark evil Ren, Snoke sees a soft conflicting Ren. These two concepts clash and water down Ren as a villian. 

The force awakens did a great job of creating a climatic tense atmosphere. It left you on the edge of your seat waiting for this movie. Ending with Luke on screen.

This movie flat out missed the mark I will watch episode 9 because I'm to invested to stop now. But I am not anticipating it at all. There was no cliff hanger.

[thrILL!]

1 hour ago, Calvert28 said:

A novice force user of no training holding her own against someone like that is a major plot hole. Because it is something that just should not happen. 

Served his purpose? He had no purpose thrill!. They are two completely different things. And where did he say that he was gonna replace Ren with Rey? Was this after he told Ren to kill her and literally held her in place while instructing him to run her through? Cause it's kinda hard to have a corpse as a apprentice. 

So Luke was embracing it? So this fanservice was ok in that form, but him going force unleashed and decimating the FO on the planet. Your saying that it needed the fan service in that way but seeing the power of Luke Skywalker would be over doing it? 

You don’t know that.  Anakin showed incredible potential as a child when he was a nobody. Midiclorian count off the charts.  How is it so unbelievable that there couldn't be another like that?  With so much raw power it surprised Kylo and over powered him?  I remember in HS there was this guy around the way that was a black belt and was such a badass. Nobody messed with him until one day he fought the local drug kingpin around our way.  The black belt dude got beat down so bad it was hard to watch.  So here’s a guy with so much training getting whipped by someone with no formal training. Raw power unleashed.  Dude was not ready for it and got worked. 

Snoke embarrased Ren publicly on board the ship and then again in his chambers and questioned his place at his side.  Then he mentioned Rey’s potential.  I don’t remember the dialogue but he implied Ren could be replaced before he commanded him to kill her.  A test. 

You're still missing the point. We did see the power of Luke Skywalker!  On a level NEVER before seen by any Jedi or Sith.  Fan service would’ve been him flying in on his X-Wing (we all waited for it after seeing it parked in the cove) and getting out and fighting everybody with his lightsaber.  That would’ve been so played out.  Instead, this man defeated the First Order without even stepping foot on the planet.  And allowed the Resistance, and his sister, to escape to fight another day.  A display of power so incredible it will forever resonate thru the galaxy.  

[sunnygsm]

I really like Kylo's progression so far. He's a great character. 

Genuine question, do people believe that he's truly evil (i.e. has he gone full dark side?). This is the one area that I haven't been convinced of yet. The pull to the light still exists within him. I want to learn more about what's pulling him to the dark side. 

[fretgod99]

1 hour ago, thebestever6 said:

So Ren was conflicted with his mother but not his uncle or dad? Like it just doesn't make sense. And Rens foundation is garbage. People try to justify it by saying he's in the grey area, or he's having conflicting emotions. But what you have is an underdeveloped villian.

Luke saw nothing but darkness in Ren. He should have no conflicting emotions. It makes no sense. So Luke sees a Dark evil Ren, Snoke sees a soft conflicting Ren. These two concepts clash and water down Ren as a villian. 

I think Ren was conflicted about his father. That’s why I said it still weighs on him. And Ren believes Luke was legit trying to kill him. What’s wrong with Ren’s foundation? He’s trying to emulate his grandfather. And we found out in VIII that he was being manipulated by Snoke to turn to the dark side. How is that different from Vader in II & III? In episode IV, what was Vader’s foundation?

Snoke is goading his apprentice to cow him and keep him in his place. Again, seems right in line with what we should expect.

[thrILL!]

2 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

I really like Kylo's progression so far. He's a great character. 

Genuine question, do people believe that he's truly evil (i.e. has he gone full dark side?). This is the one area that I haven't been convinced of yet. The pull to the light still exists within him. I want to learn more about what's pulling him to the dark side. 

Personally, I think Kylo has to die.  His dad (and soon his) mom are gone.  Luke is gone. Forget redemption.  We don’t need a mirror of Luke helping save Vader.  We need to see Rey end this fool.  

[fretgod99]

1 minute ago, sunnygsm said:

I really like Kylo's progression so far. He's a great character. 

Genuine question, do people believe that he's truly evil (i.e. has he gone full dark side?). This is the one area that I haven't been convinced of yet. The pull to the light still exists within him. I want to learn more about what's pulling him to the dark side. 

Agree. I think he’s been fantastic.

Honestly, I’m hoping he stays evil. I don’t think I’d have a problem if not but we’ve already scene that story with Vader. Especially with the prequels, the first six movies are essentially the story of Anakin’s decent into darkness and redemption. So I hope they don’t go that way with Ren.

I think they showed us Ren’s true colors in the throne room: He’s all ambition and power. He killed Snoke to take charge, not to rid the galaxy of a problem. He simply thinks he can do it better.

[fretgod99]

13 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

This movie flat out missed the mark I will watch episode 9 because I'm to invested to stop now. But I am not anticipating it at all. There was no cliff hanger.

The Resistance is down to a Corellian freighter less than half full of people with no resources, ships, bases, or contacts and they’re trying to overcome a massive military organization hell bent on ruling the galaxy under an iron thumb. Nobody has any idea what to do at this point. Plus, you don’t need a cliffhanger. IV didn’t have one. The prequels didn’t either (though knowing where they’d end up certainly changes how that plays out).