***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread

[MKnight82]

3 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Rotten Tomatoes is the least qualified rating system on the Internet, and people need to stop citing it.  Ghostbusters has a 76% on it.  The new Ghostbusters.  Rotten Tomatoes gets its ratings from critics and critics alone, and critics are as fickle and stupid as anybody out there.  The Exorcist has 86.  Get Out has 99.  It's 100% political and trendy and should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever

ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever ever, ever, ever, ever

Be used to judge a movie, good or bad, for any argument. 

Ever. 

Ok.  Well there seem to be plenty of people on here that weren't thrilled with the movie.  I certainly wasn't I have friends that loved it and some that didn't.  Its certainly a divisive movie.  I think its definitely open to debate about whether or not its a "bad" movie.  

[MacReady]

Just now, MKnight82 said:

Ok.  Well there seem to be plenty of people on here that weren't thrilled with the movie.  I certainly wasn't I have friends that loved it and some that didn't.  Its certainly a divisive movie.  I think its definitely open to debate about whether or not its a "bad" movie.  

I don't think it is open to debate on whether or not it's a bad movie.  Rian Johnson is literally a top 20 writer/director working right now.  If all the characters and mythology were changed and it wasn't Star Wars, it would be receiving a ****ton of praise. 

[MKnight82]

Just now, HorizontoZenith said:

I don't think it is open to debate on whether or not it's a bad movie.  Rian Johnson is literally a top 20 writer/director working right now.  If all the characters and mythology were changed and it wasn't Star Wars, it would be receiving a ****ton of praise. 

Well I do think its open to debate.  The movie drags at parts, particularly on the Resistance ship.  The humor attempts fall flat a lot of times.  The Leia flying through space scene was ridiculous.  The entire casino plot was boring and sucked.  The three main characters of the new franchise (Rey, Finn, Poe) spend very little screen time together.  These are issues I have with the writing/direction of the movie that have nothing to do with Star Wars.  

[fretgod99]

2 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

But then he did complete his training.... Why would a Jedi Master's first instinct be to murder his nephew?  

Because he had a momentary sense of panic at a horrible vision of the future maybe and his first intinct was to stamp it out. In other words, he was tempted by the dark side. It’s not like being a Jedi makes one immune from temptation or falling. If it did, we wouldn’t have Darth Tyranus. As soon as he realized what he was considering, he rejected even the thoight of it.

It is interesting that people who are vehemently opposed to Luke being considered as a fully fleshed out, dynamic character over the course of 40 years are ignoring the very explicit lesson Luke gave us in the film: your legends are not what you think they are. People don’t like Luke being tempted because they feel that Luke (the Legend) wouldn’t be. They are neglecting the fact that Luke (the Legend) doesn’t actually exists. Even within the story world, he doesn’t actually exist. Luke (the Man) does exist. It is not at all unbelievable that he would act and behave in a very human way. He is, nor has he ever been, the Legend. Thinking that Luke (the Man) is beholden to behave as Luke (the Legend) is asking for the character to be inhuman, static, and 2D.

[MKnight82]

9 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Because he had a momentary sense of panic at a horrible vision of the future maybe and his first intinct was to stamp it out. In other words, he was tempted by the dark side. It’s not like being a Jedi makes one immune from temptation or falling. If it did, we wouldn’t have Darth Tyranus. As soon as he realized what he was considering, he rejected even the thoight of it.

It is interesting that people who are vehemently opposed to Luke being considered as a fully fleshed out, dynamic character over the course of 40 years are ignoring the very explicit lesson Luke gave us in the film: your legends are not what you think they are. People don’t like Luke being tempted because they feel that Luke (the Legend) wouldn’t be. They are neglecting the fact that Luke (the Legend) doesn’t actually exists. Even within the story world, he doesn’t actually exist. Luke (the Man) does exist. It is not at all unbelievable that he would act and behave in a very human way. He is, nor has he ever been, the Legend. Thinking that Luke (the Man) is beholden to behave as Luke (the Legend) is asking for the character to be inhuman, static, and 2D.

He's only not the "Legend" because Rian Johnson wrote it that way.  I didn't have a set expectation for how Luke Skywalker would be entering into the movie, but I certainly didn't like the direction the writer/director took it in.  

edit - I take that back.  I did have some set expectation of Luke Skywalker.  I expected to see him portrayed in a similar way that we had seen in the original movies, as a hero and beacon for hope that was a master of the force.

[fretgod99]

Stolen from a friend on Facebook, whose career is based on the art of understanding story-telling. You don’t have to like the Canto Bight line, but I do think most people are ignoring some pretty important aspects of it in tearing it down.

——————————————

In defense of Canto Bight: I’m neither a major Star Wars fan nor timely with my commentary, but in the gazillion thinkpieces that have been written about The Last Jedi (first in the critical raves, then in the backlash wave, then the backlash to the backlash, and now the inevitable and exhausting backlash to the backlash backlashers), I have come across one particular critique several times, even from those who enjoyed the film (mild spoilers ahead, so I guess I’ll do the obligatory line jump to appease those who think stories are only great when you don’t know the ending ?). Although there are countless other details over which to quibble (and many have and will continue to do so for years), I feel compelled while I have some down time on my recruitment trip to make my case on one:

The Finn/Rose Canto Bight excursion is getting no love, even from fans of the film. Set aside that Finn remains my favorite character and performance in this new series (John Boyega combines Luke’s wide-eyed naïveté, Han’s wry humor and his own authentic high energy, and a small complaint I had for this film is that he wasn’t on screen more), and that Rose was a far more compelling and appealing character than the Internet has collectively decided (perhaps I’m the only one who felt the sincerity of her pain over losing her sister and how that wrenching loss drove her through every steady and selfless act she made; side note: the reason her romance with Finn felt “out of nowhere” to you, fanboy, is because it wasn’t telegraphed with purely surface attraction and flirtation, but rather born out of genuine, mutual admiration for content of CHARACTER, not hotness quotient). Yeah, so, set all THAT aside, and while you’re at it, go ahead and also set aside that the casino scenes grace us something brand new to the franchise. You say it was just another creature feature extravaganza like the cantina scenes? I say BS. We’ve seen the lower class dregs of societies in those scenes, but we’ve never seen the upper crust bourgeois who are the profiteers of these Wars among the Stars. Not to mention it features Mark Hamill’s Serkis-worthy mo-cap portrayal of the drunk little alien who used B.B.-8 for slots. Without the sequence, the entire movie really would have purely been a super low-speed chase scene (those of you who think the running time was 30 min too long - I’m not one of you - should look elsewhere for cuts). And before I get to my main point (swear I have one), let’s please not forget that Canto Bight gave us Benicio del Toro’s uncreatively named DJ, who, besides featuring some of his best character tics since Usual Suspects, is far darker, twisted and complicated than the Lando comparisons people keep making. He elevated the film. 

But the whole mission was a failure, you cry. The entire effort was fruitless and pointless! What a waste of time! THIS is the seemingly widely agreed upon critique I’m really railing against today. Finn/Rose may not have been successful in their intended task, but then again, neither was anything the Rebels tried to do in this film (one of the more subtle ways in which this was modeled after Empire after all). But you’re missing the whole point, dear reader: the rebellion is reduced to, what, a tiny handful of battered people by the end. They’re rubble. There’s nothing left ... except those kids who watched Finn & Rose wreak havoc among the elite and set those llama things free. Except that kid who force pulled that broom and got the honor of being the FINAL SHOT of the film (only time no Skywalker has been in the last shot, I read). Canto Bight was the whole damn point, people. It’s why there can BE an Episode 9. A seed was planted, inspiration was struck and word will spread. Now, the fact that so many people either missed this point, find it moot or simply not compelling enough to be effective certainly could be considered a storytellling flaw. Maybe more spotlight needed to be shone on how important it will prove to be that the Rebellion spirit was passed on in a grassroots fashion. But to say that the whole thing was “pointless” or “futile” is missing something pretty thematically big about the movie. 

Ok. Been keeping that to myself and obviously it was festering a bit. I welcome debate and disagreement.

———————————————

I’ve said it a number of times that I don’t think it was a perfect movie. It dragged for me in a couple of places, including Canto Bight. But there’s a difference between not liking some direction elements and that list a couple pages back that legitimately reads like someone wasn’t paying attention to the movie and/or the reason the movie is blasted is because it didn’t tell the story how that particular person expected it to be told.

[fretgod99]

8 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

He's only not the "Legend" because Rian Johnson wrote it that way.  I didn't have a set expectation for how Luke Skywalker would be entering into the movie, but I certainly didn't like the direction the writer/director took it in.  

edit - I take that back.  I did have some set expectation of Luke Skywalker.  I expected to see him portrayed in a similar way that we had seen in the original movies, as a hero and beacon for hope that was a master of the force.

Right. You were expecting the Legend. My point is had we been given the Legend, 1. It’d be pure Deus Ex, and 2. Luke wouldn’t be a real character. He’d be a static, flat, boring thing used to yet again save the Rebellion/Resistance. He’d be what everybody is complaining about Snoke being. Except people also conveniently ignore that Snoke is literally exactly what the Emperor was on the OT - a static obstacle to be overcome by the people the story was really about. People just seem to be upset it played out a movie earlier in this trilogy.

 

EDIT: So again, my point (along with Luke’s from the movie) is that the Legend never actually existed.

[MKnight82]

Just now, fretgod99 said:

Right. You were expecting the Legend. My point is had we been given the Legend, 1. It’d be pure Deus Ex, and 2. Luke wouldn’t be a real character. He’d be a static, flat, boring thing ised to yet again save the Rebellion/Resistance. He’d be what everybody is complaining about Snoke being. Except people also conveniently ignore that Snoke is literally exactly what the Emperor was on the OT - a static obstacle to be overcome by the people the story was really about. People just seem to be upset it played out a movie earlier in this trilogy.

I actually upset it happened a movie too late on this trilogy.  The Last Jedi is essentially a second origin movie, albeit one that completely negates the first origin movie of this trilogy.  If you took a few of the opening introduction scenes from Force Awakens and then had the entire plot of TLJ (minus the casino plot) that's a better origin story than the two we've been provided.  

[MKnight82]

7 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

the reason her romance with Finn felt “out of nowhere” to you, fanboy, is because it wasn’t telegraphed with purely surface attraction and flirtation, but rather born out of genuine, mutual admiration for content of CHARACTER, not hotness quotient)

Or because the two actors had a serious lack of chemistry.  Admiration typically leads to strong friendships, flirtation to romantic relationships.  The Finn/Rose love thing DID seem out of nowhere to me when she kissed him.  But honestly I don't really care that much about romantic interests in action films.  

10 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

let’s please not forget that Canto Bight gave us Benicio del Toro’s uncreatively named DJ

He could have been in the brig on the Resistance ship.  Boom, no need to go to stupid casino.  Separating Finn and Poe for the entire movie was a terrible writing decision IMO.  They barely had enough screen time in Force Awakens.  We need to see these two guys grow as friends to make whatever emotional payoff that happens in the 3rd concluding movie meaningful.  

13 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Now, the fact that so many people either missed this point, find it moot or simply not compelling enough to be effective certainly could be considered a storytellling flaw. Maybe more spotlight needed to be shone on how important it will prove to be that the Rebellion spirit was passed on in a grassroots fashion. But to say that the whole thing was “pointless” or “futile” is missing something pretty thematically big about the movie. 

The Resistance sent out a message to the entire galaxy, and survived without anything remotely helpful from the casino.  The word would have spread without ever going there.  

[fretgod99]

5 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

He could have been in the brig on the Resistance ship.  Boom, no need to go to stupid casino.  Separating Finn and Poe for the entire movie was a terrible writing decision IMO.  They barely had enough screen time in Force Awakens.  We need to see these two guys grow as friends to make whatever emotional payoff that happens in the 3rd concluding movie meaningful.  

TFA established their buddy-dom. Why do we need more? This movie was about the individual characters growing. We don’t need more of their pairing growing. In TFA they were both defined by their relationship to the other; Finn needed to grow somewhere to be his own character. Poe needed a great deal of personal development as well. Yet another hotshot renegade for whom everything always turns up roses isn’t interesting.

So the Resistance just happens to have whatever crackerjack hacker they need to break onto Snoke’s ship in their brig while they’re fleeing from the FO? That sounds honestly terrible. People complain about plot holes now, that would be drastically worse.

5 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

The Resistance sent out a message to the entire galaxy, and survived without anything remotely helpful from the casino.  The word would have spread without ever going there.  

And the message sent garnered no response. So it stands to reason that what the Resistance has done, in and of itself, hasn’t gotten that job done. This is also a more personal way to show the impact. Telling is boring. You’re asking them to tell instead of show.

[MKnight82]

4 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

TFA established their buddy-dom. Why do we need more?

Because they barely shared any screen time in FA?  Daisey Ridley in a recent interview said she wasn't keen on Finn and Rey not sharing any screen time in the movie either.  

[fretgod99]

50 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Because they barely shared any screen time in FA?  Daisey Ridley in a recent interview said she wasn't keen on Finn and Rey not sharing any screen time in the movie either.  

Ok. But why was it necessary that we saw them together more? Why is them being even more established as buddies a necessary component of telling the story?

[MKnight82]

9 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Ok. But why was it necessary that we saw them together more? Why is them being even more established as buddies a necessary component of telling the story?

Because the stronger the bond between the characters the bigger the emotional payoff in the conclusion.  We've been told these characters are friends but we haven't seen them around each other much on film.  I think it makes for stronger storytelling.  In the original movies the main trio were not only essential to the plot but had a great onscreen dynamic amongst the three.  When Han gets frozen and Leia is devastated, we believe it because we've seen the two's relationship grow onscreen.  

edit - also aren't you one of the posters that said it isn't a perfect movie?  What are your criticisms of the movie then? 

[Deadpulse]

9 hours ago, cddolphin said:

Gonna have to bookmark this page to read next time I'm waiting in line at the DMV or Costco or something

cosigned.

 

I dont have the patience to re-read the same circle arguments 

[JonStark]

2 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

The Resistance sent out a message to the entire galaxy, and survived without anything remotely helpful from the casino.  The word would have spread without ever going there.  

So let me get this straight. One complaint is that TLJ basically made TFA pointless, and another complaint is now that the Resistance survived without any help from the "unnecessary" casino scene. They survived BECAUSE Luke saved them, which would not have happened if they didn't track him down in the previous movie.  

A lot of these complaints really contradict themselves.