THE DUKE Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 The First Order was the remnants of The Empire who didn't want to follow the Republic. The First Order's leader is very much alive at the end of TLJ, the leader is Kylo Ren (albeit with Hux not happy about it). The first order wiped out a good chunk of the Republic leadership in the TFA, and the Resistance is all that's left of who's fighting them. Most people likely just live their life and don't worry about it, a la DJ. Snoke was a red herring. Far from the first in movies, most certainly won't be the last. Not even the first in Star Wars really. Luke helped Rey connect better with the force. He basically gave Rey the same type of instruction that Obi-Wan gave him in ANH. Luke also helped save the Resistance. This isn't Luke's story. Rey's parental question is still up in the air imo. We don't see Ren's vision. He's essentially an unreliable narrator. If it turns out that way after the end of Ep 9, then this is a valid point, because TFA definitely poses the question. The answer may be that it doesn't matter who her parents are though, and that does convey it's own point about how the Force belongs to everyone, not just the Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just to point out, these are the cookie cutter complaints on fan boys, and not a single one of them (if they were all true) make TLJ a bad movie, it makes it what you werent expecting it to be. 3 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: - After years away from Star Wars we are introduced to the two new factions in FA, the First Order and the Resistance. At the end of TLJ the Resistance is practically wiped out and the First Order's leader is dead New factions? They are just new names for the same exact factions we have always known. Bad-Dark-Sith-Empire-First Order or Good-Light-Jedi-Rebellion-Resistance they are the same sides of the same coin we have always been using here. And thats exactly why they were used in TFA, it allows us to jump right back into the story, without having to have a full movie for background. And Yes, the Resistance has been backed into a corner, is hobbling on its last legs, but it is still alive, that Spark is still there. That is what matters. The Resistance was always much smaller than the First Order, this is actually the logical line of what would happen in an actual WAR (remember, thats why we are here folks. Seems like an import issue that many forget). It is a new delema that we have never seen this side of the story have to deal with. And no, the First Order's Supreme Leader is alive, his name is Kylo Ren. That is what the interaction between he and Hux is about. Snoke is dead, the power transfers. And for the first time ever, that side is being lead by a conflicted entity. One who has felt the pull of the light, and probably still has some of that in him. Imagine the possibilities that provides as he Commands the opposing Warring faction. 15 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: - Snoke was set up as the big bad in FA, he ends up being pointless. He was set up as one of the Bad Guys. This idea of the "big bad" is so elementary that it is boring at this point. It is amazing how whiny this argument has been. This is actually an amazing use of subversion by Rain Johnson, which actually catapults Ren's character forward, finally having his own agency. And for the first time, I actually respected Ren. I wanted Rey to join him and create something new, and more powerful than ever before. This Snoke issue is the Red Flag for telling me its just Fanboy complaints. Because he was mirrored as the Emperor ON PURPOSE. You all fell into the ruse, and now youre made that you did. 20 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: - The search for Luke Skywalker was a waste of time. He didn't train Rey at all. No it wasnt, but just like Snoke, the results of the search were the subversion. It didnt match your idea, so therefore its no good? Luke did trian Rey, he trained her in the lessons he believed that she (and the rest of the galaxy) should know. That the Jedi arent what they should be looking to. But, again, in a great act of subversion, it is actually Rey's unrelenting belief in both the Jedi Order and the legend of Luke Skywalker himself that brings him back out of the depths of depression (for lack of a better word) to help save the Resistance one more time. If Rey doesnt find Luke, doesnt push him, doesnt convince him to return to the Force, then he doesnt stall Kylo long enough to save what is left of them, and this really would have been the end of the series. 26 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: - One of the biggest questions of the first movie, "who are Rey's parents" ending us being completely meaningless. No, not meaningless, actually the exact opposite. It is the most meaningful thing in this entire movie. That it doesnt matter where you come from, who your parents were, that anyone can be the hero of any story. That you have been being trained your entire life for something, and you always need to be ready for when that thing presents itself. To stop telling yourself the lies that are holding you back from being great, and embrace what you are meant to be. It is exactly what Rey is, Nobody, that makes her so special. But many, like you, had you head so burried in the sand because you were mad that she wasnt a secret skywalker, or a long lost Kenobi, that you missed this point. 30 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: I don't hate the Last Jedi as a movie. I just don't see why they didn't go this direction with the first movie instead of setting up a plot and then immediately undoing all of it in the 2nd movie. If they wanted the Franchise to move this direction The Last Jedi should have been the first movie of this trilogy. It is pretty obvious that the people in this camp just cant handle subversion in story telling. They wanted to keep along with the pretty little story that they had already laid out in their heads. Because Rain Johnson was masterful at it in this movie. I would love to have seen the "internet backlash" when Leia was actually Luke's sister (after he had been pining for her, and they kissed) as well as when the Vader/Father reveal would have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cddolphin Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 33 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: - The search for Luke Skywalker was a waste of time. He didn't train Rey at all. Also.. what was the third lesson?? Maybe I missed it but I feel like he only gave her two.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Calvert28 said: I among so many other people who are pissed off about this movie have proven my point on why it's bad. It would be one thing if it was a stand alone movie like Rogue One. But it's not, and it does nothing really to further the trilogy outside of like 2 things. Its really a pointless movie. And im not bothered by people not agreeing with me. It's you blindly accepting this as a great sequel then telling me im wrong with my gripes while giving poor examples to support your defense of the blatantly obvious plotholes and inconsistencies of this movie. Lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, cddolphin said: Also.. what was the third lesson?? Maybe I missed it but I feel like he only gave her two.. It has been said that there was a 3rd lesson filmed, but it was cut for flow. Disappointing, but that is what happens in film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Snoke wasn’t pointless. But he was also a completely static character in The Force Awakens. TLJ didn’t change that. He’s an obstacle to be overcome by the characters the story is actually about. This is exactly the same as the Emperor in VI. This is what’s lost in all the “but Snoke could have been so awesome!” fervor. This series of movies was never ever going to be about Snoke. Making him Mace or Plagueis or some other legacy character makes the story about him. It’s not supposed to be. Luke in TLJ doesn’t undo everything in TFA. It gives us perspectice. Luke didn’t change between the two movies. We gain new information along with the Resistance, so now we know why he fled. Rey’s parents being nobody isn’t meaningless. The fact that they are nobody is precisely the point. Why is this even a gripe? I seriously don’t get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DUKE Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, cddolphin said: Also.. what was the third lesson?? Maybe I missed it but I feel like he only gave her two.. Baskin Robbins always finds out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cddolphin Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: It has been said that there was a 3rd lesson filmed, but it was cut for flow. Disappointing, but that is what happens in film Ugh... what a choppy product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretgod99 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, cddolphin said: Plenty of people in this thread have aired similar complaints (myself included). Having complaints because you subjectively don’t like a movie is drastically different than carrying on about how the movie is objectively terrible and nobody should enjoy it. I don’t think the movie was perfect, but some of these complaints are laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said: Just to point out, these are the cookie cutter complaints on fan boys, and not a single one of them (if they were all true) make TLJ a bad movie, it makes it what you werent expecting it to be. That isn't true. I'm stating serious complaints I have about an 8th installment in a movie series. 2 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: New factions? They are just new names for the same exact factions we have always known. Bad-Dark-Sith-Empire-First Order or Good-Light-Jedi-Rebellion-Resistance they are the same sides of the same coin we have always been using here. And thats exactly why they were used in TFA, it allows us to jump right back into the story, without having to have a full movie for background. And Yes, the Resistance has been backed into a corner, is hobbling on its last legs, but it is still alive, that Spark is still there. That is what matters. The Resistance was always much smaller than the First Order, this is actually the logical line of what would happen in an actual WAR (remember, thats why we are here folks. Seems like an import issue that many forget). It is a new delema that we have never seen this side of the story have to deal with. And no, the First Order's Supreme Leader is alive, his name is Kylo Ren. That is what the interaction between he and Hux is about. Snoke is dead, the power transfers. And for the first time ever, that side is being lead by a conflicted entity. One who has felt the pull of the light, and probably still has some of that in him. Imagine the possibilities that provides as he Commands the opposing Warring faction. Yes new factions. They are much different than the original movies. The empire was the base of power in the galaxy with the government behind it. The rebels were an outlaw band fighting against an oppressive government. The First Order are the outlaws, a marauding power hungry group while the Resistance are a privately funded army supported by the Republic Senate. Snoke as a character was a complete waste of time, I'm not really sure why you would defend that. Again, if they wanted to kill off Snoke without explaining anything about him, why not do that in the first film of the new trilogy? Hux's character is another one this film destroyed. He's portrayed as a vile angry man in FA with authority over the First Order's troops. He gives a Hitler-esce speech to the troops before they destroy the Senate. In the Last Jedi he's a walking punchline. This is likely Disney's influence on the series. 11 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: He was set up as one of the Bad Guys. This idea of the "big bad" is so elementary that it is boring at this point. It is amazing how whiny this argument has been. This is actually an amazing use of subversion by Rain Johnson, which actually catapults Ren's character forward, finally having his own agency. And for the first time, I actually respected Ren. I wanted Rey to join him and create something new, and more powerful than ever before. This Snoke issue is the Red Flag for telling me its just Fanboy complaints. Because he was mirrored as the Emperor ON PURPOSE. You all fell into the ruse, and now youre made that you did. Then why include Snoke at all? There was no ruse, he was written as the leader of the First Order by one writer and then completely discarded by the next writer. You're acting like there was some grand plan here, Rian Johnson has already stated multiple times he barely spoke to JJ Abrams about the direction of the franchise before he wrote TLJ. Also your continued "fanboy" comments are pretty childish. You're on an internet message board arguing a sci-fi space movie. News flash, you're a fanboy. 14 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: No it wasnt, but just like Snoke, the results of the search were the subversion. It didnt match your idea, so therefore its no good? Luke did trian Rey, he trained her in the lessons he believed that she (and the rest of the galaxy) should know. That the Jedi arent what they should be looking to. But, again, in a great act of subversion, it is actually Rey's unrelenting belief in both the Jedi Order and the legend of Luke Skywalker himself that brings him back out of the depths of depression (for lack of a better word) to help save the Resistance one more time. If Rey doesnt find Luke, doesnt push him, doesnt convince him to return to the Force, then he doesnt stall Kylo long enough to save what is left of them, and this really would have been the end of the series. Luke didn't train Rey at all, his two lessons were an attempt to convince Rey not to pursue becoming a Jedi. Also he claimed he would teach her 3 lessons, I only counted 2. I assume he'll teach her something in episode 9 as a force ghost or whatever. But the entire freaking plot of FA was looking for Luke Skywalker. I'm sorry, but you don't spend the entire origin of the new trilogy looking for something that saves the main players a 5 min head start. That is freaking lame and bad writing. 17 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: No, not meaningless, actually the exact opposite. It is the most meaningful thing in this entire movie. That it doesnt matter where you come from, who your parents were, that anyone can be the hero of any story. That you have been being trained your entire life for something, and you always need to be ready for when that thing presents itself. To stop telling yourself the lies that are holding you back from being great, and embrace what you are meant to be. It is exactly what Rey is, Nobody, that makes her so special. But many, like you, had you head so burried in the sand because you were mad that she wasnt a secret skywalker, or a long lost Kenobi, that you missed this point. Then why is Luke Skywalker in this movie? Why is Leia in this movie? Oh right, because these movies are and have always been about the Skywalkers. Ben Solo will basically have to die in the finale, either fighting Rey or sacrificing himself to save Rey in a final act of redemption. The Skywalker line will end. If you were going to reboot the franchise, do it in Episode 7. But don't trot out all the old guard and then tell me this franchise isn't about the Skywalkers. That is crap. 21 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: t is pretty obvious that the people in this camp just cant handle subversion in story telling. They wanted to keep along with the pretty little story that they had already laid out in their heads. Because Rain Johnson was masterful at it in this movie. I would love to have seen the "internet backlash" when Leia was actually Luke's sister (after he had been pining for her, and they kissed) as well as when the Vader/Father reveal would have happened. You seem to just want to be intentionally abrasive. My opinions are what they are because the Last Jedi was a poor continuation of an existing story. You're acting like the people who call Load a good album by Metallica, because it was "reinventing their sound". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: You seem to just want to be intentionally abrasive. My opinions are what they are because the Last Jedi was a poor continuation of an existing story. You're acting like the people who call Load a good album by Metallica, because it was "reinventing their sound". Except the person in charge of the First chapter and the final chapter of this Trilogy (as well as Kathleen Kennedy and all the other execs) LOVED this story. Have nothing but praised it. JJ said he wished he could have written it. TRY AGAIN with this sorryass party line. It didnt continue the story of how YOU wanted it, thats why you didnt like it. Im not saying you cant have that opinion, but that doesnt make your opinion Fact. Its a great story, sure it has its holes, almost all do, and every script could use another eye and an extra rewrite, but at some point you have to put something on film. People who dont have Hard-ons for George's legacy love this movie, and that will always be a better indicator of its actual merit. The untainted opinion holds way more than the ones who live and breath the lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, StLunatic88 said: Except the person in charge of the First chapter and the final chapter of this Trilogy (as well as Kathleen Kennedy and all the other execs) LOVED this story. Have nothing but praised it. JJ said he wished he could have written it. TRY AGAIN with this sorryass party line. It didnt continue the story of how YOU wanted it, thats why you didnt like it. Im not saying you cant have that opinion, but that doesnt make your opinion Fact. Its a great story, sure it has its holes, almost all do, and every script could use another eye and an extra rewrite, but at some point you have to put something on film. People who dont have Hard-ons for George's legacy love this movie, and that will always be a better indicator of its actual merit. The untainted opinion holds way more than the ones who live and breath the lore. Are you confusing me with another poster on here or something? I've never said any of my opinions are fact. I said that these are my opinions of why The Last Jedi was a poor continuation of an existing story. Oh and of course JJ Abrams isn't going to say anything negative about TLJ, Disney is giving him millions of dollars for the franchise he's not going to hurt their product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cddolphin Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Except the person in charge of the First chapter and the final chapter of this Trilogy (as well as Kathleen Kennedy and all the other execs) LOVED this story. Have nothing but praised it. Whether he's being sincere or not, this means a whole lot of nothing. 100% chance Abrams has nothing but praise for the film, regardless of his true feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Are you confusing me with another poster on here or something? I've never said any of my opinions are fact. I said that these are my opinions of why The Last Jedi was a poor continuation of an existing story. You may have gotten caught in the crossfire of what has been about 45 pages now of this discussion, but your line I originally quoted was the perfect avatar of this side of the argument, and it was the perfect one to point out what we have been saying all along. You didnt like it for reasons rooted in the fact it didnt stick to some idea of the lore you believe to be gospel. You have indicated this many time in the past page of responses weather you realize it or not, and that may be the issue, that it is subconscious for you, but your complaints always go back to the "previous 8 films" and the "story of the Skywalkers". The thing is, if you actually look at what is happeneing in this movie, it is paying respects to all of those things from the past. And enhancing them, not tearing them down. just because the story has expanded past the Skywalkers, doesnt mean its throwing them in the garbage. Yes Carrie Fisher's death is going to throw a wrench into things going forward. but when they finished this movie, There are 2 *Skywalkers left, and they were going to be the central part of Ep.9, and at the very least one of them still is. Kylo is a Skywalker, he is still one of 2 Main Charachters in this franchise, please tell me HOW this is not still a Skywalker story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Oh and of course JJ Abrams isn't going to say anything negative about TLJ, Disney is giving him millions of dollars for the franchise he's not going to hurt their product. 3 minutes ago, cddolphin said: Whether he's being sincere or not, this means a whole lot of nothing. 100% chance Abrams has nothing but praise for the film, regardless of his true feelings. Seriously guys? The Conspiracy Theory angle? He clearly liked the film and the script. At the VERY LEAST the Execs in charge of all of Lucas Film at Disney who are bestowed the burden of protecting the Lore, agreed with the Script and Film and let him make it. Please tall me how you are going to spin that FACT. Because they threw directors off the Solo film because it didnt fit what they wanted, they could have done the same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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