goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 5 minutes ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: It's not conflating, it's recognizing what a stacking effect this could have. The crackdown can be stupid for multiple reasons. The main stacking effect it'll have, based on the use case, is that defensive players will get better at tackling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 10 minutes ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: If they're willing to attempt to make the a tackle, any tackle in a split second decision they're not always thinking about how to get someone down, just getting someone down. Especially if it's from an angle, and trying to prevent someone from getting past a marker. They're certainly not thinking about their height, and weight qualifications, and deciding which tackle will work best for which player on the opposing team in the blink of an eye. It's not a dumb argument if one stops acting obtuse. If you don't think a defensive back has never attempted a hip drop tackle on a tight end, and been successful at it in the NFL, then you've haven't been paying attention all this time. Ryan Clark as a former defensive back was just going off about this lol. To do a proper hip drop, you have to halt the progress of an offensive player first - most DBs aren't strong enough to do it - or risk being bounced away. It's not an effective technique to bring down a bigger player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Just now, goldfishwars said: The main stacking effect it'll have, based on the use case, is that defensive players will get better at tackling. Sure, in an era where tackling has gotten worse due to the CBA, and drills, and practices aren't focused in on those fundamentals as they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 2 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: To do a proper hip drop, you have to halt the progress of an offensive player first - most DBs aren't strong enough to do it - or risk being bounced away. It's not an effective technique to bring down a bigger player. Yeah I think I'm gonna adhere to the former defensive back in the NFL on this one trying to stop guys in actual game situations at break-neck speed when you don't always have the luxury of thinking how how you're going to bring a guy down when you wrap a sucker up, and try to leverage them to the ground. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 minute ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: Sure, in an era where tackling has gotten worse due to the CBA, and drills, and practices aren't focused in on those fundamentals as they used to be. Teams will adapt, hire some rugby coaches (if they are smart) and, like horse collar tackles, the number of them will be drastically reduced over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Just now, TecmoSuperJoe said: Yeah I think I'm gonna adhere to the former defensive back in the NFL on this one trying to stop guys in actual game situations at break-neck speed when you don't always have the luxury of thinking how how you're going to bring a guy down when you wrap a sucker up, and try to leverage them to the ground. It's almost impossible to hip drop at break neck speed. With respect, I don't think you know what know what this tackle is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 12 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: It's almost impossible to hip drop at break neck speed. With respect, I don't think you know what know what this tackle is. Neither does the league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 5 minutes ago, Soko said: Neither does the league. Well, if by the league, you mean refs who are already bad at their jobs - I would agree. I think we'll see it misapplied. If the league includes a competition committee made up of NFL head coaches who want to see the tackle outlawed, then that's a different subject. If defensive players are mad about it, they should take it up with their boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 3 hours ago, goldfishwars said: Teams will adapt, hire some rugby coaches (if they are smart) and, like horse collar tackles, the number of them will be drastically reduced over time. By adapt if you mean just get used to the new iteration of the product whether you like it or not, certainly that's possible. The NFL wants more scoring, and that's really the bigger issue. And a horse collar tackle is a lot simpler to just not "not do" than form tackling. And an official has a better chance of getting that right on the field. Bad comparison. Edited March 26 by TecmoSuperJoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 3 hours ago, goldfishwars said: It's almost impossible to hip drop at break neck speed. With respect, I don't think you know what know what this tackle is. And I don't think you played defensive back in the NFL like Ryan Clark did. So with all due respect slick, I'll adhere to his opinion on this matter compared to yours. Edited March 26 by TecmoSuperJoe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 14 hours ago, goldfishwars said: You guys do know defenses weren’t always using this tackle form right? I get the criticisms about how it’ll be enforced, but there are legitimate concerns about how hip dropping has crept into the game more and more and it’s high propensity to cause injury. Of course not! They'd grab the horse collar and pull the runner down that way. Why would any defender go through all the work to drop their body weight on the back of a runners' knees to get the buckle effect when they could grab the guy by the collar and throw him back? You're talking about the issue, not the trend. The league makes a tackle illegal and forces defenses to adapt. Now the adaptation is illegal and the league makes defenses adapt again. Repeat ad infinitum until you get the ridiculously tiny map of where you can hit a QB, or what you can do to a "defenseless" 250 pound guy running full speed at you in body armor. And every year it gets more absurd as the options get whittled down. And none of this yearly cycle is constructive or set up to improve the game. It's driven by minimizing legal obligations and maximize betting, because the CTE lawsuits have put the fear of god in the owners and DraftKings/Fanduel are the new market share. At it's heart this is nothing but a short term cash grab. Football will survive, but it's not the same, so let us gripe about it. Edited March 26 by ramssuperbowl99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 17 minutes ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: By adapt if you mean just get used to the new iteration of the product whether you like it or not, certainly that's possible. The NFL wants more scoring, and that's really the bigger issue. The NFL wants as many healthy star players on the field as they can muster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Just now, goldfishwars said: The NFL wants as many healthy star players on the field as they can muster. On offense yup. While they move towards 18 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 18 minutes ago, TecmoSuperJoe said: And I don't think you played defensive back in the NFL like Ryan Clark did. So with respect, I'll adhere to his opinion on this matter compared to yours. I don't think Ryan Clark has looked at this closely. They want to outlaw swinging hip drop tackles, right? It would take insane skill, and frankly a risk to your own healthy, to attempt do that full speed. You're way more likely to see this shortly after a catch, or as when progress has already been slowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TecmoSuperJoe Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 4 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: I don't think Ryan Clark has looked at this closely. They want to outlaw swinging hip drop tackles, right? It would take insane skill, and frankly a risk to your own healthy, to attempt do that full speed. You're way more likely to see this shortly after a catch, or as when progress has already been slowed. Errrmm...I mean he's the one that has 600+ tackles at the highest level possible. I think he would deserve the benefit of the doubt. Even if the intent of the rule was genuine by the NFL (and it ain't they just want more offense than defense) limited offseason participation with live tackling drills since yesteryear, + working officials not getting these details down in the offseason due to their union is going to make this a mess. I mean refs have done a good job adjudicating body weight for roughing the passer so this should just be a natural extension right??? Not all changes are good, nor due they make the game better regardless of intent. Edited March 26 by TecmoSuperJoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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