Who deserves more blame Hue or Kizer?

[Kiwibrown]

48 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

We're giving up a few less points per game compared to last year. We've already turned the ball over 11 more times than last year putting the defense in a tough spot. We've only got 11 takeaways which is bad but only 2 less than we had last year so we could eclipse that number too. The defense is a lot better overall this year. Not perfect, not a great scheme but definitely better.

Offense, yeah it took a step back. We're averaging 4.6 per rush which is 4th but last year we were 4.9 and 2nd. Last year we were tied for last in attempts, even though we were 2nd in ypa. Seems dumb, but a learning experience. This year we are 25th, so improvement. Of course if you take away Kizer's runs we are 45 fewer carries than the team with the fewest carries. We just refuse to run the football with our running backs. Last year our QBs had a 77.4 rating, 28th in the league. This year it is at 60.7, a very distant last.

Kizer is bad. Hue chooses to start Kizer. So a part of Kizer's blame goes to Hue.

There was no reason to keep McCown or RGIII (I notice only McCown is being mentioned, it's like only complaining about not drafting Watson and ignoring Trubisky). We weren't challenging for the playoffs this year anyway. Osweiler should have never been a real option just a good way to add to draft capital. Kessler proved he could be competent even if it hurt Hue's feelings when he was constantly stretching the field. Hue let his ego make that call and never gave Cody a chance to play with the 1s. He is a healthy inactive when our other QBs are healthy.  Sure he would look bad trying to what Kizer does, not that Kizer looks any better but if Hue would let Kessler do what Kessler does we would have had a much more enjoyable season and a lot less embarrassment. Again, that is on Hue.

70% Hue
20% Kizer
5% Sashi
5% uncontrollable circumstances

 

 

Yup. 

McCown may of taken us to the soaring heights of 4-5 wins. 

Kessler probably 3-4.

But it atleast the season would of been somewhat enjoyable. 

[Bonanza23]

I’d give it an exact 70% Hue 30% Kizer. Hue got nothing out of him, but Kizer just isn’t any good. 

[Bonanza23]

Oh and Kessler is garbage. There I said it. 

[Bonanza23]

@freakygeniuskid out here fighting the good fight. 

[Kathouse Sticks]

1 hour ago, freakygeniuskid said:

Really. The backup LT to the best LT in football is your argument. Wrap it up boys. Joe Thomas's backup isn't as good as him. Clearly this means we have no talent on the team. Also like how you picked all of our worst stats (most influenced by rookie QB, no WR's, Defense being on the field 60% of every freaking game, and a weird as hell secondary scheme) instead of looking at the good ones.

You're just being willfully obtuse at this point and I'm done engaging. If you and your camp want to see us as being hopeless and without talent then be my guest.

I think it’s called next man up. You better be ready. But that’s cool. Since I am so obtuse (my doc has told me to lose some weight), and picked out all of our worst stats, please give me the stats you are using to say we have improved. I’m not unreasonable. I’ll listen to your argument. I just won’t take face value comments that we’ve improved and that I’m using “our worst stats” to say we’re not. Show me the numbers that say we’re improved. I’ll listen. 

[dawgdish]

I'd say the blame is about 60% Kizer, 40% Hue

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, Bonanza23 said:

Oh and Kessler is garbage. There I said it. 

You've said it many times.

Still, last year Kessler had a 3.1 TD percentage and a 1.0 INT percentage completing 65.6% of his passes for 7.1 yards per attempt which gave him a 92.3 rating.

Kizer is 2.2 TD %, 4.6 INT %, 53.9 completion % for 5.8 per attempt giving him a 59 rating.

Both were rookies, both had the same head coach, Kizer had the better line for the majority of the season, both had a decent ground game neither had great weapons for the most part. If Kessler is garbage and it is known after 8 starts Kizer is undefinable and should have been cut after the Lions game (his 8th) because the garbage on the bench was significantly better than the QB starting based solely on play comparison as rookies.

Kessler has a weak arm but kept us in games, the defense sucked. This year the defense has kept us in a lot of games and Kizer lost them. Kessler may not be the answer but dogging him for no good reason makes no sense, he was at least serviceable as a rookie something we haven't seen from a rookie QB in Cleveland since Tim Couch. He probably got a lot worse over the offseason though. Had nothing to do with what he was asked to do from his coach. Who "trust me" never let him out of the doghouse for his unsuccessful attempts to win games last year.

[Kathouse Sticks]

7 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

You've said it many times.

Still, last year Kessler had a 3.1 TD percentage and a 1.0 INT percentage completing 65.6% of his passes for 7.1 yards per attempt which gave him a 92.3 rating.

Kizer is 2.2 TD %, 4.6 INT %, 53.9 completion % for 5.8 per attempt giving him a 59 rating.

Both were rookies, both had the same head coach, Kizer had the better line for the majority of the season, both had a decent ground game neither had great weapons for the most part. If Kessler is garbage and it is known after 8 starts Kizer is undefinable and should have been cut after the Lions game (his 8th) because the garbage on the bench was significantly better than the QB starting based solely on play comparison as rookies.

Kessler has a weak arm but kept us in games, the defense sucked. This year the defense has kept us in a lot of games and Kizer lost them. Kessler may not be the answer but dogging him for no good reason makes no sense, he was at least serviceable as a rookie something we haven't seen from a rookie QB in Cleveland since Tim Couch. He probably got a lot worse over the offseason though. Had nothing to do with what he was asked to do from his coach. Who "trust me" never let him out of the doghouse for his unsuccessful attempts to win games last year.

Some very good points, there, Thomas. 

[Bonanza23]

16 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

You've said it many times.

Still, last year Kessler had a 3.1 TD percentage and a 1.0 INT percentage completing 65.6% of his passes for 7.1 yards per attempt which gave him a 92.3 rating.

Kizer is 2.2 TD %, 4.6 INT %, 53.9 completion % for 5.8 per attempt giving him a 59 rating.

Both were rookies, both had the same head coach, Kizer had the better line for the majority of the season, both had a decent ground game neither had great weapons for the most part. If Kessler is garbage and it is known after 8 starts Kizer is undefinable and should have been cut after the Lions game (his 8th) because the garbage on the bench was significantly better than the QB starting based solely on play comparison as rookies.

Kessler has a weak arm but kept us in games, the defense sucked. This year the defense has kept us in a lot of games and Kizer lost them. Kessler may not be the answer but dogging him for no good reason makes no sense, he was at least serviceable as a rookie something we haven't seen from a rookie QB in Cleveland since Tim Couch. He probably got a lot worse over the offseason though. Had nothing to do with what he was asked to do from his coach. Who "trust me" never let him out of the doghouse for his unsuccessful attempts to win games last year.

Oh lord Thomas, stats. He was ok last year. Defenses caught up to his weenie arm. This year I don’t recall him moving the team at all pre-season and regular. If he was good as some in here say he would have easily beat out Kizer. He didn’t, and hue had to unfortunately play Kizer instead. The best of complete crap. It’s honestly one thing I don’t put blame on Hue. Lack of adaptation yes, little to work with no. 

[H2ThaIzzo]

I blame Kizer for losses to the following:

Baltimore week 2

Indianapolis week 3

NY Jets week 4

Tennessee week 7

Detroit week 10

Jacksonville week 11

***Chargers week 13

***Ravens week 15

 

Redzone turnovers. Turnovers resulting in TD's. Turnovers returned for TD's. These were all winnable games. Aside from the Colts game where Kizer did nothing until the second half where the Colts defense backed off, He was cold, turned the ball over at inopportune times, and cost us victories. 109/216 completions, 7 td's to 15 turnovers. It wasn't just him turning the ball over, he turned the ball over in their redzone, in our redzone, had fumbles returned for touchdowns, and had interceptions returned. Honestly he probably cost us the win in this past Sunday's game too. 

 

As much as Hue Jackson has irritated me with some of his decisions, It's hard for me to blame him more than the Qb who has proven he can't read defenses, can't make smart decisions with the football and isn't an accurate passer. I blame Hue for some terrible decisions with timeouts, challenges. I blame him for the Green Bay loss. Why he played conservative the entire second half then when he had the opportunity to instill some confidence in his running game by giving Crowell the ball on a 3rd and 4 that either way would have made GB call their final timeout, he elected to throw the ball which ended up stopping the clock. Call that run and no matter what happens, the Packers run out of time and don't get the game tying touchdown. I just firmly feel Kizer's play has cost us a lot more than Hue's play calling, even though neither have been strong this year. 

[Bonanza23]

6 minutes ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

I blame Kizer for losses to the following:

Baltimore week 2

Indianapolis week 3

NY Jets week 4

Tennessee week 7

Detroit week 10

Jacksonville week 11

***Chargers week 13

***Ravens week 15

 

Redzone turnovers. Turnovers resulting in TD's. Turnovers returned for TD's. These were all winnable games. Aside from the Colts game where Kizer did nothing until the second half where the Colts defense backed off, He was cold, turned the ball over at inopportune times, and cost us victories. 109/216 completions, 7 td's to 15 turnovers. It wasn't just him turning the ball over, he turned the ball over in their redzone, in our redzone, had fumbles returned for touchdowns, and had interceptions returned. Honestly he probably cost us the win in this past Sunday's game too. 

 

As much as Hue Jackson has irritated me with some of his decisions, It's hard for me to blame him more than the Qb who has proven he can't read defenses, can't make smart decisions with the football and isn't an accurate passer. I blame Hue for some terrible decisions with timeouts, challenges. I blame him for the Green Bay loss. Why he played conservative the entire second half then when he had the opportunity to instill some confidence in his running game by giving Crowell the ball on a 3rd and 4 that either way would have made GB call their final timeout, he elected to throw the ball which ended up stopping the clock. Call that run and no matter what happens, the Packers run out of time and don't get the game tying touchdown. I just firmly feel Kizer's play has cost us a lot more than Hue's play calling, even though neither have been strong this year. 

So in other news it’s been a pretty good year, no?

[buno67]

100% on Hue Jackson.

Why does Kizer struggle? Hue does a piss poor job of coaching him up and does an even worse job when it comes to calling plays and managing the game. 

Browns are 8th in the league in passing attempts but yet they are dead last in net yards gained per passing attempt. They are 26th in rushing attempts but sit at 4th overal in yards per attempt. Hue rather abandon the run that is lead by a group of somewhat successful linemen and a solid back for a rookie QB to chuck it to two WRs who have played a total of 3 games this year basically and other WRs that dont belong on the field. 

Kizer has been pretty bad but Hue has put him in awful situations. 

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Bonanza23 said:

Oh lord Thomas, stats. He was ok last year. Defenses caught up to his weenie arm. This year I don’t recall him moving the team at all pre-season and regular. If he was good as some in here say he would have easily beat out Kizer. He didn’t, and hue had to unfortunately play Kizer instead. The best of complete crap. It’s honestly one thing I don’t put blame on Hue. Lack of adaptation yes, little to work with no. 

He never played with the first team, it was Brock and then Kizer. Sure he completed 65% of his preseason passes to scrubs not good enough to beat out the Kenny Britt and Ricardo Louis' of the world but those are just stats that mean nothing because they only put production into numbers.

What has Kizer done to prove he was or is a better option? We don't have to talk about stats because there isn't one that favors him besides rushing so what does he do that makes him a better option? Accurately throws 1 out of 3 passes downfield? Maybe 4. Makes half of his intermediate throws uncatchable or requires circus catches? Commands a huddle? Shows less accuracy on the short passes than Kessler? No poise in pressure situations or in the red zone? He does certainly keep our FG kicker fresh, I'll give him that.

Kizer has an NFL arm. Kizer doesn't contest his coach.

That is it.

Kessler probably doesn't have a future as a starter but he is a hell of a lot better NFL QB than Kizer is. If Kizer was ready with his better tools then yeah starting Kizer makes sense. If Kizer plays like, well, Kizer then no there is no reason to play him unless you are trying to lose every game.

Kizer looked the part in preseason and I had no issue with him starting. Since then he looked like the broken Derek Anderson. Hard to win with a turnover machine. Especially one that throws for fewer touchdowns per attempt than the noodle armed Kessler did last year. With the added 2 turnovers per game thrown in.

So no, I'm not buying that Kizer was or is the better choice because Kessler has a rough preseason where he threw for 65% completions and no picks in 46 attempts (only 1 TD). Or maybe we should talk about practice being the reason he was never given a shot to start a preseason game this year. That is when it really matters not the actual games where he showed he could keep us in the majority of his starts.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

To jump in on this Kessler debate, I think it certainly appears as if he regressed, but I'm not sure about that at this point.

Hue has been doing what Hue wants to do regardless of what's best all season.  When Kessler comes into the game I'm sure he's running the same all vertical route nonsense he does with Kizer, who at least has the skillset to run it.

Kessler is, and always was, a guy who needed to be in a WCO as opposed to this uber agreesive Air Coryell stuff Hue is running. Kessler has a middling arm and seems hesitant to test defenses deep, but he did appear capable of making a read or two and throwing the ball accurately.

Hue seemly has no interest in catering to a player's particular skills and this is where we stand.

[MSURacerDT55]

10 hours ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

Aside from the Colts game where Kizer did nothing until the second half where the Colts defense backed off, He was cold, turned the ball over at inopportune times, and cost us victories

You care to bring up those 6-8 drops that game?