D82 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 How’d a thread on breakout players devolve into a conversation on two receivers who have already “broken out”? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 25 minutes ago, D82 said: How’d a thread on breakout players devolve into a conversation on two receivers who have already “broken out”? This is my life, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 hours ago, ET80 said: Jefferson is not an elite athlete compared to some of his peers, but is an elite WR compared to his peers. Fair? isn't that all that really matters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PossibleCabbage Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 I think it's going to be a breakout year for some of the DL guys coming into their second year. Probably at least one of Van Ness, Kancey, Mazi Smith, and Myles Murphy breaks out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelKing728 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 15 hours ago, ET80 said: Can we just reset for a sec? I don't recall @Soko saying that Jefferson is a bad WR. In fact, he's using elite WRs (Hill, Chase, Lamb) as the comparison point. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Jefferson is greater than the sum of his tools. He's got ideal height, weight, speed, leaping ability, etc. It's not PEAK of any of those attributes, but it's also not VALLEY of those attributes either. All things considered, he's got every attribute you'd want in a WR - which is really all you should be looking for, he checks the boxes for what you want all together. What makes Jefferson special is that he can take these attributes and combine them into the picture of an elite WR - he uses each tool to its maximum to be considered the best WR in football. Jefferson is not an elite athlete compared to some of his peers, but is an elite WR compared to his peers. Fair? Even so, athletically he's not a limited receiver. Even if he's not the most gifted athletically WR ever, and I'm not sure who that is (Moss? Megatron?) If you're going to rank WRs based purely on athleticism, I think at worst JJ is going to be a top 10 guy. Is that fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 Nvm, let’s let it ride. Go, Christian Gonzalez! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 On 6/27/2024 at 3:27 PM, renndawg37 said: Pretty sure he was talking about Walker lol Okay. This helps. I kind of hopped in during the middle of the conversation so I wasn't entirely sure. As for his opinion on Walker, I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 On 7/1/2024 at 9:25 AM, vike daddy said: On 7/1/2024 at 7:06 AM, ET80 said: Jefferson is not an elite athlete compared to some of his peers, but is an elite WR compared to his peers. Fair? isn't that all that really matters? Sure, agreed. That doesn't change the elite athlete portion of the discussion but also wasn't something that's not being debated here. Nobody argued that Jefferson isn't an elite WR. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 On 7/1/2024 at 10:54 PM, SteelKing728 said: Even so, athletically he's not a limited receiver. Even if he's not the most gifted athletically WR ever, and I'm not sure who that is (Moss? Megatron?) Nobody is arguing that he's a limited WR. Absolutely nobody. If that's the crux of your argument, we're not arguing the same thing. If we're talking all time - Cowboys WR Bob Hayes was an Olympic Gold Medalist and Raiders WR James Jett was an alternate on the 1992 4x100 relay team that set the World Record in the '92 Olympics. I'd gather those two lead the list. On 7/1/2024 at 10:54 PM, SteelKing728 said: If you're going to rank WRs based purely on athleticism, I think at worst JJ is going to be a top 10 guy. I'd put a less productive WR such as DK Metcalf ahead of him. Again - JJ is the better WR, DK is the better athlete. I'm sure there are other names I could fish out that people would consider a better athlete. Two different arguments here. JJ is closer to 1 than 32, sure. I'd put him in the top 10 without a deeper dive, sure. But there are guys who are better athletes - even if the production (or - better stated - on field translation of ability) doesn't match. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 i just don't get the value of what's being discussed here, but i respect those who are. Tom Brady was not a good athlete. he couldn't run fast or jump high. many qb's could throw the ball further and faster. again, why did it matter to his effectiveness to the team or his player value versus his peers? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 29 minutes ago, vike daddy said: i just don't get the value of what's being discussed here, but i respect those who are. Tom Brady was not a good athlete. he couldn't run fast or jump high. many qb's could throw the ball further and faster. again, why did it matter to his effectiveness to the team or his player value versus his peers? I admittedly came in late, but I don't see anyone questioning whether or not JJ is a great WR. Somewhere in here, people are conflating athletic ability to football ability - elite athletic ability is a nice trait to have but not THE trait to have. The greatest WR to ever play the game was far from the greatest athlete at the position. It doesn't diminish his accomplishments, but it's as stateable fact. Jerry Rice wasn't as athletic as a guy like Andre Rison or Tim Brown (or Jett, the Olympic-level sprinter). But, his ability to put it all together while committing to the precision required for the position put him above ANYONE who EVER played the position. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 7 minutes ago, ET80 said: I admittedly came in late, but I don't see anyone questioning whether or not JJ is a great WR. correct, i don't see that either. i'm just not understanding the focus on examining who has a greater or lesser athletic makeup when that's not really how we rate the effectiveness of football players. again, my use of Tom Brady, showing how actually he was a fairly poor athlete, seems to throw the argument out as far as being of merit. i don't get it... me dumb.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 14 minutes ago, vike daddy said: i don't get it... me dumb.... Nah. We're just old. Found the source, BTW: In THIS context, I get the rabbit hole. The comparison (hell, I shoulda punted this to Comparisons) is that Jalen McMillan is a breakout candidate because his athletic scoring is equal to Jefferson. I think looking surface level at athletic scoring doesn't account for the nuances that Jefferson brings to an offense - hence the "well, JJ isn't an ELITE athlete" argument. He is, he isn't - whatever, JJ is a fantastic WR because he's a fantastic WR. Looking at an RAS score as the link ignores the football part of it entirely. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 9 minutes ago, ET80 said: In THIS context, I get the rabbit hole. The comparison (hell, I shoulda punted this to Comparisons) is that Jalen McMillan is a breakout candidate because his athletic scoring is equal to Jefferson. ok... so by using the same logic we should say Tom Brady actually should have never broken out as an outstanding player and should have been at best a 2nd string scrub all his career. because comparing him to other more athletic qb's of his era, he ranks poorly. so again, the athletic comparison methodology seems... flawed. i think the old fashioned eye test may be better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, vike daddy said: ok... so by using the same logic we should say Tom Brady actually should have never broken out as an outstanding player and should have been at best a 2nd string scrub all his career. because comparing him to other more athletic qb's of his era, he ranks poorly. so again, the athletic comparison methodology seems... flawed. i think the old fashioned eye test may be better. Dude, the point is flying way over your head. The point isn’t that Jalen McMillan can’t be a good receiver. The point is that using his athleticism as the crux of that isn’t going to get you to to a top-3 WR. You wouldn’t say QB John Doe has GOAT potential on account of being an athletic clone to Tom Brady. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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