2018 Coaches Discussion Thread

[germ-x]

15 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

This same team and defense drug John fox his last year here to make him look like he had the locker room. 

Players weren’t coming out and defending Fox either.  Did the defense carry Denver this year? Sure, but you’re missing the point.  Multiple high profile players came out in defense of Joseph keeping his job. That leads most to believe he still had the support of the team. That didn’t happen with John Fox.  The biggest reaction from Broncos players when Fox was fired was “wow.”

Regardless of who carried the team or Joseph’s ineptness, he clearly still had/has the teams support.  Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been fired, but the fact that he was still able to keep support after an awful year shouldn’t be ignored.

[jsthomp2007]

9 hours ago, germ-x said:

Players weren’t coming out and defending Fox either.  Did the defense carry Denver this year? Sure, but you’re missing the point.  Multiple high profile players came out in defense of Joseph keeping his job. That leads most to believe he still had the support of the team. That didn’t happen with John Fox.  The biggest reaction from Broncos players when Fox was fired was “wow.”

Regardless of who carried the team or Joseph’s ineptness, he clearly still had/has the teams support.  Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been fired, but the fact that he was still able to keep support after an awful year shouldn’t be ignored.

i am okay with VJ getting another year.  He clearly showed that he was a rookie head coach.  Just like with a rookie player, you gotta give them some time to learn and develop.  And, Elway admitted to not giving VJ the talent around him to succeed.  

I am not anticipating the Broncos making the playoffs next season; however, there has to be a noticeable improvement to think that in year 3, VJ has gotten his sh***t together to lead the team not only to the playoffs, but in contention for a Super Bowl.  

[iLikeDefense]

13 hours ago, germ-x said:

Players weren’t coming out and defending Fox either.  Did the defense carry Denver this year? Sure, but you’re missing the point.  Multiple high profile players came out in defense of Joseph keeping his job. That leads most to believe he still had the support of the team. That didn’t happen with John Fox.  The biggest reaction from Broncos players when Fox was fired was “wow.”

Regardless of who carried the team or Joseph’s ineptness, he clearly still had/has the teams support.  Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have been fired, but the fact that he was still able to keep support after an awful year shouldn’t be ignored.

Also to add to your point about the bears and Fox, their defense played great despite injuries due to Vic Fangio and not John Fox. Vic is also staying even though they just hired new HC Nagy, most Coordinators with expiring contracts would be gone. 

[broncos67]

Joseph probably has 4 games in the beginning of the season to prove himself, or he's gone by midseason. I know that seems unlikely, but the fanbase is tepid at best on Vance. If this team starts out 1-3, 1-4, etc...there's going to be a MAJOR problem. If that happens, he's out by midseason. Also if that happens, Elway's seat gets infinitely warmer. Unless the Broncos go 0-16, Elway will probably get one more chance at a HC hire post-Vance. I say post-Vance because I don't see him here after next year unless there's a miracle. If Denver gets blown out in numerous games again, they may both be gone, but that SB gave Elway an extremely long leash.

[champ11]

55 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

Joseph probably has 4 games in the beginning of the season to prove himself, or he's gone by midseason. I know that seems unlikely, but the fanbase is tepid at best on Vance. If this team starts out 1-3, 1-4, etc...there's going to be a MAJOR problem. If that happens, he's out by midseason. Also if that happens, Elway's seat gets infinitely warmer. Unless the Broncos go 0-16, Elway will probably get one more chance at a HC hire post-Vance. I say post-Vance because I don't see him here after next year unless there's a miracle. If Denver gets blown out in numerous games again, they may both be gone, but that SB gave Elway an extremely long leash.

Denver's fans minds have been made up since before the hire. I'm rooting for the guy just bc I hate Broncos twitter so much. 

But yeah I think the chances of Vance being head coach in 2019 are slim

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 hours ago, jsthomp2007 said:

i am okay with VJ getting another year.  He clearly showed that he was a rookie head coach.  Just like with a rookie player, you gotta give them some time to learn and develop.  And, Elway admitted to not giving VJ the talent around him to succeed.  

The problem for me is that the red flags we (or most of us) saw with him even before he was hired were even more glaringly evident throughout the season. Some of you dismissed my warnings about how his Dolphins played in the playoff game last year - unprepared, undisciplined, no energy, passion or fire, failed to make adjustments, etc - but those were exactly the problems we saw from the Broncos this year, yet it was not only one unit, it was all three. Those aren't things that just correct themselves with time, they are fundamental flaws.

The only reason he still has his job is because Joe Ellis has done a sh***y job running the business end of the organization since the Super Bowl and we don't have/won't spend the money on another head coach. Until Ellis turns into a better business man this franchise is going languish in mediocrity. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

1 hour ago, broncos67 said:

Joseph probably has 4 games in the beginning of the season to prove himself, or he's gone by midseason. I know that seems unlikely, but the fanbase is tepid at best on Vance. If this team starts out 1-3, 1-4, etc...there's going to be a MAJOR problem. If that happens, he's out by midseason. Also if that happens, Elway's seat gets infinitely warmer. Unless the Broncos go 0-16, Elway will probably get one more chance at a HC hire post-Vance. I say post-Vance because I don't see him here after next year unless there's a miracle. If Denver gets blown out in numerous games again, they may both be gone, but that SB gave Elway an extremely long leash.

I don't think Ellis has the stones to fire Elway. If he does that, all heat goes off Elway and is turned on him and that's the last thing he wants. It would take multiple consecutive seasons like 2017 for that to happen. 

[jsthomp2007]

2 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

The problem for me is that the red flags we (or most of us) saw with him even before he was hired were even more glaringly evident throughout the season. Some of you dismissed my warnings about how his Dolphins played in the playoff game last year - unprepared, undisciplined, no energy, passion or fire, failed to make adjustments, etc - but those were exactly the problems we saw from the Broncos this year, yet it was not only one unit, it was all three. Those aren't things that just correct themselves with time, they are fundamental flaws.

The only reason he still has his job is because Joe Ellis has done a sh***y job running the business end of the organization since the Super Bowl and we don't have/won't spend the money on another head coach. Until Ellis turns into a better business man this franchise is going languish in mediocrity. 

You may be write about VJ, but they hired him and they deserve to let him try one more year out to see if he can hack the toils of a HC job.  

In terms of Ellis...I don't like the dude...would love to see him go.  

But this team is hampered by the fact that Bowlen isn't there...the fact that the team is owned by a trust by his sh***t children who probably don't let the Broncos spend any money...hurts this team.  When someone buys the team who actually cares about it...then they will be better off.

[champ11]

13 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

The problem for me is that the red flags we (or most of us) saw with him even before he was hired were even more glaringly evident throughout the season. Some of you dismissed my warnings about how his Dolphins played in the playoff game last year - unprepared, undisciplined, no energy, passion or fire, failed to make adjustments, etc - but those were exactly the problems we saw from the Broncos this year, yet it was not only one unit, it was all three. Those aren't things that just correct themselves with time, they are fundamental flaws.

The only reason he still has his job is because Joe Ellis has done a sh***y job running the business end of the organization since the Super Bowl and we don't have/won't spend the money on another head coach. Until Ellis turns into a better business man this franchise is going languish in mediocrity. 

who would Joe Ellis pay right now if he fired VJ today? 

You never replied to my thoughts on keeping him and I'm genuinely interested in what your thoughts are 

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 minutes ago, champ11 said:

who would Joe Ellis pay right now if he fired VJ today? 

You never replied to my thoughts on keeping him and I'm genuinely interested in what your thoughts are 

Remind me and I'll reply. 

And the argument that the HC candidates cupboard is pretty bare is entirely valid. The options for us are either retreads like Mike Smith or rolling the dice on another hot coordinator and that blew up in our face the last two times we tried it (Vance and Mac). And none of the potential "star" coaching candidates (David Shaw being one) would come here unless Elway relinquished a lot of control and we all know that's not happening any time soon. 

[champ11]

3 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Remind me and I'll reply. 

And the argument that the HC candidates cupboard is pretty bare is entirely valid. The options for us are either retreads like Mike Smith or rolling the dice on another hot coordinator and that blew up in our face the last two times we tried it (Vance and Mac). And none of the potential "star" coaching candidates (David Shaw being one) would come here unless Elway relinquished a lot of control and we all know that's not happening any time soon. 

longish one on page 10 of this thread. it's a tough situation bc I think everyone can agree not hiring McVay or Shanahan was a mistake. And on the other hand, those hires were never going to happen bc of Elway's role. I think we would be in a very similar situation right now with Toub.

[paul-mac]

3 hours ago, broncos67 said:

Joseph probably has 4 games in the beginning of the season to prove himself, or he's gone by midseason. I know that seems unlikely, but the fanbase is tepid at best on Vance. If this team starts out 1-3, 1-4, etc...there's going to be a MAJOR problem. If that happens, he's out by midseason. Also if that happens, Elway's seat gets infinitely warmer. Unless the Broncos go 0-16, Elway will probably get one more chance at a HC hire post-Vance. I say post-Vance because I don't see him here after next year unless there's a miracle. If Denver gets blown out in numerous games again, they may both be gone, but that SB gave Elway an extremely long leash.

 

I agree with you about Vance getting fired midseason as a serious possibility, however I reckon for now Elway has a job as long as he wants it. Joe Ellis isn’t involved enough to fire anyone. The only way I ever see Elway getting fired is when Bowlen dies and his kid takes over and maybe chooses to get rid of Joe Ellis 

[AnAngryAmerican]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:43 PM, champ11 said:

I agree that he is a bad coach (coaches can improve, but we didn't see much to give us hope) and a bad hire. Last off-season was a horrible misplay by Elway. He thought they were an OL and Lynch development away from being a good playoff team when they should have recognized a (at least mini) rebuild was necessary. He didn't want to hire Shanahan or consider McVay bc he thought the team had a foundation and wanted to do things his way. I don't think you can fix that with firing Vance or even nailing this offseason.

My point and idea is that - this is a bad team that has needs everywhere. Most notably at QB, which is very difficult to figure out to begin with. This team is not going to become a good team this offseason, BUT Elway could do a lot to rebuild the foundation of the team. Right now, and when the coach hiring process would go on, it is not a desirable coaching destination. No QB or OL, controlling GM, incredibly high expectations from the fanbase, and high coaching turnover is not the dream job for a candidate. And what great candidates are realistically available? Is adding a re-tread head coach or an unknown coordinator better than running it back with Vance? 

Vance is a bad head coach - but it is true that the players like him. It's also true that there was a majorly toxic culture in Dove Valley this past year that has much more to do with the personnel and Elway than Joseph. I think he does deserve some credit for not totally losing the team in an incredibly tough situation and season. How much do you gain to fire him when you are going to be a non-playoff team either way? Avoid the turnover, try to rebuild the team personnel wise, add a QB of the now or future....and get a new coach in the future when you feel like you are a desirable destination and you have a guy you want. 

I just don't think it's as easy as Vance is a bad coach - fire him. This is a rebuild. The most important thing now is acquiring talent and developing it. 

These are my thoughts as I'm looking at the situation and future and I'm not adamant about being right. I agree that everyone has a right to be upset with Joseph's performance and of course Elway. I'm just thinking coaching turnover might make sense to avoid. Do you think I have any points or am being too easy on the org

I totally get the points you're making here and really can't disagree with them on a fundamental level. 

As many of us have said, there really isn't a viable option for a new head coach out there. But we also all admit Vance is not the guy long term, barring some unforeseen turnaround, was bad hire at the time. I think Toub would have been a superior choice. I think Kyle would have been an excellent choice. But Elway's ego got in the way. Maybe this disaster of a season has humbled Elway a little bit. Let's hope. 

I just come down on the side that if Vance isn't the guy, why keep him? 

[Broncofan]

23 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I totally get the points you're making here and really can't disagree with them on a fundamental level. 

As many of us have said, there really isn't a viable option for a new head coach out there. But we also all admit Vance is not the guy long term, barring some unforeseen turnaround, was bad hire at the time. I think Toub would have been a superior choice. I think Kyle would have been an excellent choice. But Elway's ego got in the way. Maybe this disaster of a season has humbled Elway a little bit. Let's hope. 

I just come down on the side that if Vance isn't the guy, why keep him? 

If it was just about Vance I don’t think anyone would disagree with that premise.  

But consider: 

1.  Very few HC would want to come to Denver and not mold the coaching staff to his vision.   I definitely prefer Musgrave than half the retread OC hires we are seeing (Schottenheimer literally broke me how does that guy get an OC job with his resume).  

2.  We fire VJ we don’t get to coach the Senior Bowl.  Given how bad our scouting has been we need all the help we can get lol. 

3.   We fire VJ after one year and take an uninspired choice next year we are almost committed to that guy - canning 2 coaches in 2 years wirh our roster issues would make us radioactive to any decent HC guys next year.   The Matt Lafleur / Toub / Defillippo crowd (maybe last guy won’t be available but the other 2 should be).   

I say the above as a guy who went on record for Shanahan.  I agree wholeheartedly the mistake was last year. Looking at how the coaching situation has changed across the league it’s a 2-year price though.  

[jsthomp2007]

50 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

If it was just about Vance I don’t think anyone would disagree with that premise.  

But consider: 

1.  Very few HC would want to come to Denver and not mold the coaching staff to his vision.   I definitely prefer Musgrave than half the retread OC hires we are seeing (Schottenheimer literally broke me how does that guy get an OC job with his resume).  

2.  We fire VJ we don’t get to coach the Senior Bowl.  Given how bad our scouting has been we need all the help we can get lol. 

3.   We fire VJ after one year and take an uninspired choice next year we are almost committed to that guy - canning 2 coaches in 2 years wirh our roster issues would make us radioactive to any decent HC guys next year.   The Matt Lafleur / Toub / Defillippo crowd (maybe last guy won’t be available but the other 2 should be).   

I say the above as a guy who went on record for Shanahan.  I agree wholeheartedly the mistake was last year. Looking at how the coaching situation has changed across the league it’s a 2-year price though.  

Yes...but, what about the Alamo?