hitnhope Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 9 minutes ago, pgwingman said: So by that metric, I'm still calling Gute a top 5-6 GM in the league, tied with Pitt, Bal, Buff. What makes Gute a top 5-6 GM? The early winning seasons were certainly with the team he inherited from TT (Rodgers,Adams, Bakh, Jones etc). All of the key personnel were from his duration with the exception of the Smith Bros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnypackerfan Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 hour ago, packfanfb said: In other words... A couple of weeks ago....Jordan Love was #1 in missed throw rate...now he is #5. For the past several weeks he has been near the middle of the pack in missed throw rate. So still not where you want him, but he is improving. At this point, it is the long passes of 25 yards plus on that he is having a problem on. Most of those are underthrows or throws behind the receiver. He needs to drive the ball more. This can be taught and overcome. Hopefully we see improvement over the next 5-6 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 15 hours ago, {Family Ghost} said: I think it's the entire sequence of events that really gets to me most. We took a QB a few years too early .. then we thought we were smarter than every other organization in the league by thinking we could sit him for his cheap years while molding him into the next franchise QB. I guess that remains to be seen, so jury is still out. Early returns not promising though. We give Rodgers a monster contract and it ends up costing us a hall of Fame level all pro WR, plus we are currently paying for Rodgers to be a Jet. This would be a nightmare if Rodgers was lighting it up in NY. The injury probably saved us some egg on the face, but also cost us a first round pick because we accepted conditions on that deal. Could have dealt #12 the year before for multiple first round pick plus. We also would know right now whether Love could play and whether LaFleur could actually coach without an MVP QB because they would have shown us what they could do in 2022, and then hear in 2023. Such a frustrating series of events. They clearly made a big mistake keeping Rodgers for 2022. We offered Adams more money than Vegas did but he turned us down. I do agree with the rest of your post, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgwingman Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 10 minutes ago, hitnhope said: What makes Gute a top 5-6 GM? The early winning seasons were certainly with the team he inherited from TT (Rodgers,Adams, Bakh, Jones etc). All of the key personnel were from his duration with the exception of the Smith Bros. Well I think it's reasonable to assume that he had a large hand in the TT drafts since he was director of scouting and player personnel. And what makes Gute a top 5 GM? Well, even by our combined lists of GMs who are better, we came up with 4 who are better (KC, PHI, SEA, SF), and maybe 4 more who are about the same (BAL, PIT, NE, BUF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugger Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 hours ago, Packerraymond said: There's nothing you can do to set an NFL franchise back a decade. Talk about overdramatic, sheesh.... No kidding. It isn't like what Devine did by trading for John Hadl back in 1974. That boneheaded move along with a boat load of picks to the Rams crippled this franchise for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, pgwingman said: I'll agree with that list, and even add the Ravens and Pats. That still puts us 9th/32 teams. If you told me Gute is a top 10 GM over the last ten years, I'd agree. As I've said a few posts back, I also think a few of the GMs ahead of Gute deserve an asterisk. Howie Roseman turned Carson freaking Wentz into like 3 first round picks. Patriots and Chiefs had QBs playing below market value. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Buffalo haven't played in a Super Bowl this decade, so I'm not even sure you can say they're definitively better at roster management than we are. So by that metric, I'm still calling Gute a top 5-6 GM in the league, tied with Pitt, Bal, Buff. @pgwingman I can't take my own advice as is evident by my other replies. Also, the funny thing is that the Ravens have had some holes lately as well and haven't gotten back since winning the SB, including a number of missed playoff years at the end of Newsome's tenure. And obviously the Pats are bottoming out. Edited October 24, 2023 by Striker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitnhope Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 11 minutes ago, pgwingman said: Well I think it's reasonable to assume that he had a large hand in the TT drafts since he was director of scouting and player personnel. And what makes Gute a top 5 GM? Well, even by our combined lists of GMs who are better, we came up with 4 who are better (KC, PHI, SEA, SF), and maybe 4 more who are about the same (BAL, PIT, NE, BUF). Except TT's later draft started the problem. Chasing positions rather than talent. I find your method of ranking GM's humorous. Let's start with those who are obviously worse, and you could have him ranked as the 5-6 worst. The methodology is poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgwingman Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 11 minutes ago, Striker said: @pgwingman I can't take my own advice as is evident by my other replies. Also, the funny thing is that the Ravens have had some holes lately as well and haven't gotten back since winning the SB, including a number of missed playoff years at the end of Newsome's tenure. And obviously the Pats are bottoming out. Yeah i know what you mean. I have no problem with honest discussion though. My point has always just been that if you're going to drag on Gute, it's important to compare him to his peers rather than a hypothetical GM. IMO, going back 10 years, you could judge GMs by regular season wins (4th most), postseason wins (T5th most), and Super Bowls (zero). Over the last 5 years, packers have the 5th most reg season wins and T9th most postseason wins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgwingman Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, hitnhope said: Except TT's later draft started the problem. Chasing positions rather than talent. I find your method of ranking GM's humorous. Let's start with those who are obviously worse, and you could have him ranked as the 5-6 worst. The methodology is poor. Is there a methodology you would use to compare GMs? I'm open to suggestions. The main criteria i use is wins over the last 5-10 years, which is easy to look up. Rotoworld rank them this summer, and had Gute 9th. https://www.nbcsports.com/fantasy/football/news/article-goal-line-stand-rotopats-2023-nfl-gm-rankings NFL.com has him 8th https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-gm-power-rankings-eagles-howie-roseman-reigns-while-brad-holmes-makes-his-ma If you want to start with those that are obviously worse, I'll start with the franchises that have mostly sucked over the last decade. Namely, the 20 or so not named in my previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dafreak Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, pgwingman said: Yeah i know what you mean. I have no problem with honest discussion though. My point has always just been that if you're going to drag on Gute, it's important to compare him to his peers rather than a hypothetical GM. IMO, going back 10 years, you could judge GMs by regular season wins (4th most), postseason wins (T5th most), and Super Bowls (zero). Over the last 5 years, packers have the 5th most reg season wins and T9th most postseason wins. Because of one man, and his name isn't Gute.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgwingman Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, dafreak said: Because of one man, and his name isn't Gute.... Then why bother even having the discussion if Gute isn't relevant to wins and losses 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 16 minutes ago, pgwingman said: Then why bother even having the discussion if Gute isn't relevant to wins and losses How to "score" a GM. Here is what I've come up with. But I haven't tried to put it into practice yet. I'm sure I'm missing a lot. Many GM's inherit good players. That shouldn't be a knock against any GM in my book. Some GM's acquire talent, they should be awarded points for that. Talking about free agency. When you have money, you spend it and make the team better. When you hit, you get points. When you whiff, points are taken away. We know that the draft is a crapshoot, regardless of where you are picking. Grade the guys and see how a GM shakes out. If GM's are consistently drafting in the top 1/4 or 1/3 of the draft? Ding them, because their drafts have not been good enough to improve. I'd give extra points to GM who swing in-season deals when in contention for the playoffs. Call it "Boulders" or something like that. Look at free agency. Give extra points to GM's who re-sign their own to higher end deals, because that means they are drafting well. Ding them when higher drafted guys walk and do not get starter contracts elsewhere. Don't ding, but do not give extra points when guys leave and sign high end deals elsewhere. It means the GM is up against the cap and cannot afford his young talent. Cap management is important. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 22 minutes ago, pgwingman said: Then why bother even having the discussion if Gute isn't relevant to wins and losses ..because it doesn't fit a narrative. Right or wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, vegas492 said: How to "score" a GM. Here is what I've come up with. But I haven't tried to put it into practice yet. I'm sure I'm missing a lot. Many GM's inherit good players. That shouldn't be a knock against any GM in my book. Some GM's acquire talent, they should be awarded points for that. Talking about free agency. When you have money, you spend it and make the team better. When you hit, you get points. When you whiff, points are taken away. We know that the draft is a crapshoot, regardless of where you are picking. Grade the guys and see how a GM shakes out. If GM's are consistently drafting in the top 1/4 or 1/3 of the draft? Ding them, because their drafts have not been good enough to improve. I'd give extra points to GM who swing in-season deals when in contention for the playoffs. Call it "Boulders" or something like that. Look at free agency. Give extra points to GM's who re-sign their own to higher end deals, because that means they are drafting well. Ding them when higher drafted guys walk and do not get starter contracts elsewhere. Don't ding, but do not give extra points when guys leave and sign high end deals elsewhere. It means the GM is up against the cap and cannot afford his young talent. Cap management is important. One thing that I've brought up before re: the draft, sometimes GMs are real streaky. The Bucs GM, Licht, has gone through four head coaches now (yes, Arians retired, but Bowles may not make it) and had some absolute bombs with his early drafts, including his second round kicker pick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Pack Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Football is random, winning is random, trying to find a winning formula is random, having a GM draft/acquire players that work in your team is random, having a good coach who gels with his players is random, having a franchise QB at a good salary cap figure is random, the shape of an American football is random and fans are random 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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