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J-ALL-DAY

Offseason/Training Camp Thread

315 posts in this topic

big9erfan    3

It looks to me like there are a lot of battles for roster spots yet to be won and that a few more veterans are in trouble.  I think our d-line depth is so good that both Blair and Dial could be in trouble.  Those are the kind of guys that might have a hard time making our roster, but are certainly still good enough to help other teams.  We need to find other teams in need of d-line guys that have a similar situation with their CBs or S's and make a trade. We might even be able to use a WR that could challenge Kerley and RObinson for time. Theus looks like he's probably out along with Bell and Celek.  I think those three have less value to another team and we're not likely to get anything for them.  I thought maybe we could trade McDoanld, but with Kittle hurt, or maybe even with him still there, McD he's been the best TE in camp. On the other hand with the youth movement in full swing maybe we could swap him for some other team's young guy at another position. What I don't want is the Baalke approach of picking up old, washed-up veterans. Youth - speed - potential! That's what I'm looking for.

Edited by big9erfan

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Forge    42
46 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

It looks to me like there are a lot of battles for roster spots yet to be won and that a few more veterans are in trouble.  I think our d-line depth is so good that both Blair and Dial could be in trouble.  Those are the kind of guys that might have a hard time making our roster, but are certainly still good enough to help other teams.  We need to find other teams in need of d-line guys that have a similar situation with their CBs or S's and make a trade. We might even be able to use a WR that could challenge Kerley and RObinson for time. Theus looks like he's probably out along with Bell and Celek.  I think those three have less value to another team and we're not likely to get anything for them.  I thought maybe we could trade McDoanld, but with Kittle hurt, or maybe even with him still there, McD he's been the best TE in camp. On the other hand with the youth movement in full swing maybe we could swap him for some other team's young guy at another position. What I don't want is the Baalke approach of picking up old, washed-up veterans. Youth - speed - potential! That's what I'm looking for.

I think that Blair is definitely out. The injury certainly didn't help. He is a PS candidate though. Dial could be in trouble, I agree, but I really hope that we get something for him and not just cut him out right. Right now, I do think that he's going to make the roster, but he's far from a lock. But I like the idea of moving him for a player that may be struggling with their current team in a position that we need, but I'd easily settle for a late round pick for him. I just think that he has tradeable value. Not a lot, of course, but there should be some. I've said for a while now that I don't think that there's any value in McDonald in a trade. Given that he and Celek are very comparable throughout their career production, I don't see why any team would trade for Vance when they can pick up Celek on the wire. 

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big9erfan    3

Oh yeah, a late round pick for any of the guys I mentioned would be fine.  They are likely cut candidates.  I just think that there's a chance some team is in exactly our position with our d-line only they have more guys at some position where we need help.  Better that the two teams do a trade in a situation like that then they both cut their guys and hope they can sign a guy when the mad scramble comes after final cut downs.

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y2lamanaki    21


Pita did get a lot of Special Teams snaps against the Chiefs. I wonder if this was to see if he can overtake a guy like Watson in that regard (and the first preseason game would say he can not, for the record).

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Forge    42
7 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:


Pita did get a lot of Special Teams snaps against the Chiefs. I wonder if this was to see if he can overtake a guy like Watson in that regard (and the first preseason game would say he can not, for the record).

The only thing that I think will hurt Pita in that regard is that I believe that Watson can play some SAM, right? That's a position where we are very thin in my opinion. Even Brooks isn't the most natural fit there right now. 

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J-ALL-DAY    19

Remember that long diving catch Breida made along the sideline in practice a few weeks ago? Pita was stride for stride with him which really impressed me. He seems like a raw talent you want to keep around. Is there a way we could make up a mysterious injury to him and stash him on IR? :D

Grant Cohn did say he looked really good in the last joint practice and we should keep him over Lynch LOL. 

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big9erfan    3

When talking about veterans who might not make the team I suppose I should also have included Harold and Brooks.  Tank has apparently been doing fine but with all the talent in the defensive front he could be another guy that we could use as potential trade bait.  Problem is he's been a flop so far in his career so who would give us anything for him?  And Brooks is so long in the tooth I doubt we'd get anything for him either.  Harold's young but what has he done to make him worth trading for? Who knows, maybe one of those guys has 2 or 3 great pre-season games and someone get interested.

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Forge    42
40 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

When talking about veterans who might not make the team I suppose I should also have included Harold and Brooks.  Tank has apparently been doing fine but with all the talent in the defensive front he could be another guy that we could use as potential trade bait.  Problem is he's been a flop so far in his career so who would give us anything for him?  And Brooks is so long in the tooth I doubt we'd get anything for him either.  Harold's young but what has he done to make him worth trading for? Who knows, maybe one of those guys has 2 or 3 great pre-season games and someone get interested.

We don't really have anyone to play SAM if Brooks is gone. 

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J-ALL-DAY    19

We have Harold who actually took 1st team snaps over Brooks in the last practice. That is something to watch out for today. 

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big9erfan    3

Maybe. I don't imagine we'd let both Brooks and Harold go.  Maybe even letting one go might depend on how Pita is doing.

 I wonder sometimes if we're making too much over the difference between outside LBs.  It's not like the old days when teams used a single TE and he stayed wherever they lined him up.  If you add up the number of times the average team plays 2 TEs, no TE, splits a TE out wide, or moves him pre-snap from one side of the line to the other I'll bet that constitutes more than half the snaps.  My assumption before Smith got hurt was that he and Foster and Bowman would all start simply because we wanted our best guys on the field at the same time.

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Fureys49ers    11
17 minutes ago, big9erfan said:

Maybe. I don't imagine we'd let both Brooks and Harold go.  Maybe even letting one go might depend on how Pita is doing.

 I wonder sometimes if we're making too much over the difference between outside LBs.  It's not like the old days when teams used a single TE and he stayed wherever they lined him up.  If you add up the number of times the average team plays 2 TEs, no TE, splits a TE out wide, or moves him pre-snap from one side of the line to the other I'll bet that constitutes more than half the snaps.  My assumption before Smith got hurt was that he and Foster and Bowman would all start simply because we wanted our best guys on the field at the same time.

None of those guys are edge players though, or have a lot of experience at holding an edge and turning runs inside keeping outside contain. Bowman, Smith and Foster all have the ability, or should/used to, to make pursuit plays, to be in coverage, and the athleticism, quickness and instincts to read the blocking and shoot gaps to make plays. That ability is mitigated if we put them on the line and allow blockers to get hands on them immediately. 

Is there much difference between the SAM and LEO? That I'm not too sure on, it seems that their roles can switch depending on how we are lining up according to the defense. With the exception of course that maybe the SAM drops back into coverage a bit while the LEO has more pass rushing responsibility. But again, those roles could switch on any given play.

Brooks as @Forge said is our starter at SAM and has experience setting and edge and getting after the QB, Harold to some extent does as well, Watson seems capable of doing the same, all to varying degrees of success mind you. I don't think we'll see Armstead, Lynch or Dumervil drop into coverage too often so our SAM needs to be able to do both. Our MIKE and WILL are your more traditional LBs. 

All that being said we are talking about very average players or common players in the NFL. In order to have trade value a player must stand out in a certain area whether I'd be age, athleticism, potetential, pass rushing ability, etc. and be valued enough for another team to give up something to acquire said player. None of Brooks, Harold, Tank and even Dial really offer anything more than depth to another team I would assume. Maybe Dial can be a two down DT for a team or a base 3-4 DE but how many of those exact players exist in the NFL? Quite a few for probably a cheaper total than Dial would cost, we here about UDFAs and guys getting signed off the street to fill that exact role. Our team is still in the early stages of rebuilding therefor the talent on our team I believe is quite as tempting to other teams as some of us would believe, especially our depth players at that. 

I would love to be able to move McDonald and Dial for a potential CB, WR, OG, SAM/LEO but I just don't really see us getting any sort of return value for the guys mentioned above, atleast not anything that we don't already have on this team. 

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rudyZ    3

Any trade we make would probably be for 7th round picks. I doubt anyone we're willing to trade has more value than that. Unless some team loses their starting HB and we're willing to trade Hyde. And we'd only entertain that trade if the front office already has a pretty good idea that they're not going to try to re-sign him next offseason. That's only if Williams and Breida have impressed the staff enough, though. 

If a guy like Dial had a season ending injury, it would solve a roster problem. Front offices around the league are probably waiting until the last preseason game before pursuing any trade seriously. I mean, they're probably having talks right now (I'm sure Lynch and Elway weren't just talking about the good ol' days all week). But all these talks are probably contingent on this or that player being healthy, or another being cut from another team, etc. Determining any player's value right now is almost impossible.

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Fureys49ers    11

That's true @rudyZ. Determining a players value in a trade at this point in the season is pretty tough, you can get a general idea from past play, contract, age and potential but even that can be very according to people's view points of certain players and position. Even with all that said we are talking about depth players for the most part on a bottom 5 team in the NFL. Even the "starters" we are talking about trading aren't anything to write home about for another team, probably depth for another team even if their presumed starter in whatever position it is goes down. If the return we are talking about is a 7th round pick Id much rather hold on to these players such as Dial, Harold, Tank so we ourselves have a little depth in case injuries to our starters were to happen. These guys that we are talking about don't have contracts that hurt us with all of our cap room, including McDonald's, so why not just keep them, have some depth at a couple of positions in case of injury with guys who have had a whole offseason to learn our new schemes. Or atleast that's my two cents on the whole matter. Now if it gets close to the cut deadline and a couple teams reach out, or we reach out to them, and we find out they are about to let a CB or IOL go who might be better than what we have now but they just can't keep them, then by all means offer up some of these guys and see if we can't secure them before they hit open market. But until then, let's keep some depth and hopefully our presumed starters can stay healthy for the next three preseason games.

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Forge    42

Looks like we are hoping to get Ward back on Wednesday. I think the odds are slim that we put him at corner, but I"ll be intrigued to see where we put him. I think that it at least be in consideration - Jerome hasn't been awful at safety, and though nobody really wants to go into the season with an UDFA as a starting free safety, if putting him there and Ward at corner is superior to having Ward at safety and playing someone like Reaser at the CB2 spot to start the season (unsure when Johnson gets back from the concussion), then so be it. 

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Fureys49ers    11
4 hours ago, Forge said:

Looks like we are hoping to get Ward back on Wednesday. I think the odds are slim that we put him at corner, but I"ll be intrigued to see where we put him. I think that it at least be in consideration - Jerome hasn't been awful at safety, and though nobody really wants to go into the season with an UDFA as a starting free safety, if putting him there and Ward at corner is superior to having Ward at safety and playing someone like Reaser at the CB2 spot to start the season (unsure when Johnson gets back from the concussion), then so be it. 

Did Johnson get another concussion during the game? Cause he played against the Broncos atleast during the first drive.

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