Draft Discussion 3.0

[FGK]

Just now, roger murdock said:

I think he would have been a star if he had SEC or Big Ten talent around him. 

That's insane. There is NO evidence to suggest that. He had the LOWEST drop rate of any of the top QBs this year and the highest % of wildly off target and uncatchable throws. Having better teammates doesn't make someone know how to throw the football. If it did, my JV QB's would've been worth something last year (urgh).

[roger murdock]

1 minute ago, freakygeniuskid said:

That's insane. There is NO evidence to suggest that. He had the LOWEST drop rate of any of the top QBs this year and the highest % of wildly off target and uncatchable throws. Having better teammates doesn't make someone know how to throw the football. If it did, my JV QB's would've been worth something last year (urgh).

Josh Allen takes the field, and 11 of the 15 best players are on the other side, basically in every matchup. In some games like vs Iowa its possible hes the only player on his team more talented than anyone lining up against him. 

Every game was a mismatch against Allen. His wide receivers sucked. His offensive line sucked, and then sucked some more, and then sucked even harder. His running backs were not good. 

He is a totally raw prospect who was playing 1v11.

 

Guys like Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have better supporting casts around them than the defenses they are playing. I think if Allen had respectable talent, especially at offensive line, then he would have been a 62% + passer with big time statistics. 

[FGK]

Just now, roger murdock said:

Josh Allen takes the field, and 11 of the 15 best players are on the other side, basically in every matchup. In some games like vs Iowa its possible hes the only player on his team more talented than anyone lining up against him. 

Every game was a mismatch against Allen. His wide receivers sucked. His offensive line sucked, and then sucked some more, and then sucked even harder. His running backs were not good. 

He is a totally raw prospect who was playing 1v11.

Guys like Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have better supporting casts around them than the defenses they are playing. I think if Allen had respectable talent, especially at offensive line, then he would have been a 62% + passer with big time statistics. 

Bold - That's just straight BS. When they're playing like, Iowa and Oregon? Okay, sure. But when they're playing Colorado State, Texas State, Gardner Webb, Hawaii, New Mexico and Air Force? Get that weak stuff outta here.

Italics - THAT ISN'T HOW FOOTBALL WORKS. I just can't even man. He played turd defenses. When you go to a big program, typically the defenses get better along with your own supporting cast. And you being inaccurate as a QB isn't fixed because your teammates get better. If I miss a throw to a guy running 18 MPH I'm gonna miss it to a guy running 20 MPH too.

[roger murdock]

4 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

Bold - That's just straight BS. When they're playing like, Iowa and Oregon? Okay, sure. But when they're playing Colorado State, Texas State, Gardner Webb, Hawaii, New Mexico and Air Force? Get that weak stuff outta here.

Italics - THAT ISN'T HOW FOOTBALL WORKS. I just can't even man. He played turd defenses. When you go to a big program, typically the defenses get better along with your own supporting cast. And you being inaccurate as a QB isn't fixed because your teammates get better. If I miss a throw to a guy running 18 MPH I'm gonna miss it to a guy running 20 MPH too.

I've watched him games vs Colorda State, Utah State, etc... These teams are much better than Wyoming. Yeah there are some absolute turd teams like Hawaii and San Jose state, but Wyoming would be just as bad without Josh Allen.

Its laughable how bad his OL is. He's pressured on something absurd like 42% of his snaps. His weakness is throwing under pressure (major red flag). If he played on an offense like the other top prospects, which gets him pressured on a more reasonable amount of snaps, say 20%, I think his completion % increases drastically. 

When Josh Allen actually gets his feet set he throws a good ball. And you aren't drafting him for what he did in college. You are drafting him because hes a more physically gifted Cam Newton who's never received proper coaching and is a ball of clay you can mold. Its  a massive risk, and not one we should take. But if I was NYG I would be *very* intrigued because they have the proper infrastructure to develop someone like him. 

I think someone like Josh Rosen would also look terrible playing on this team because he's bad throwing under pressure and needs a clean pocket to operate, which he would never be granted on this team. I'm sure he would have been a better college player than Allen but I don't think he'd be getting first round buzz because his physical package isn't comparable. 

[duke2056]

4 minutes ago, roger murdock said:

I've watched him games vs Colorda State, Utah State, etc... These teams are much better than Wyoming. Yeah there are some absolute turd teams like Hawaii and San Jose state, but Wyoming would be just as bad without Josh Allen.

Its laughable how bad his OL is. He's pressured on something absurd like 42% of his snaps. His weakness is throwing under pressure (major red flag). If he played on an offense like the other top prospects, which gets him pressured on a more reasonable amount of snaps, say 20%, I think his completion % increases drastically. 

When Josh Allen actually gets his feet set he throws a good ball. And you aren't drafting him for what he did in college. You are drafting him because hes a more physically gifted Cam Newton who's never received proper coaching and is a ball of clay you can mold. Its  a massive risk, and not one we should take. But if I was NYG I would be *very* intrigued because they have the proper infrastructure to develop someone like him. 

I think someone like Josh Rosen would also look terrible playing on this team because he's bad throwing under pressure and needs a clean pocket to operate, which he would never be granted on this team. I'm sure he would have been a better college player than Allen but I don't think he'd be getting first round buzz because his physical package isn't comparable. 

DO you have anything positive to point to about his game or just a bunch of what ifs?  I mean, you REALLY wanna draft a guy at #1 who wasn't very good in college but you think he MIGHT have  been better if he played for a bigger school and will better players around him, while somehow failing to recognize that his competition would also have been better?

They guy has trouble anticipating against garbage teams, now speed everything up and this guy is gonna be pretty bad at the next level. 

[NudeTayne]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time following your logic as well, Candy. I like the dude. He seems like a good guy from a good family who loves football. That said, I don't know what the heck is going on as far as the hype around him. Others have suggested that it's the agent that him and Sam darnold share working through the media to prop them up to get them drafted higher. I actually believe that is what it is. I scratch my head because I watched Josh Allen's pro day and he looked like absolute garbage. He was standing on a field with no pass rush and receivers who are not covered and he still was missing all over the place. He looks like a third-rounder at best just because of his rare size and arm strength. I don't know why he didn't get obliterated other than maybe it's a stacked deck with the media. He was wildly inaccurate, lacked anticipation, and just seem to almost stop before he would make big throws because he was thinking instead of just throwing. He may end up being great, but he looks like a clear bust to me, to be honest. Most quarterbacks talked about top 10 do not look like clear busts, but this is a case where Josh Allen just looks like he is not going to be any good. That said, as a brown fan I fully expect Josh Allen to be our pick. @Mind Character eat your heart out to that level of unfounded pessimism ?.

[roger murdock]

9 minutes ago, duke2056 said:

DO you have anything positive to point to about his game or just a bunch of what ifs?  I mean, you REALLY wanna draft a guy at #1 who wasn't very good in college but you think he MIGHT have  been better if he played for a bigger school and will better players around him, while somehow failing to recognize that his competition would also have been better?

They guy has trouble anticipating against garbage teams, now speed everything up and this guy is gonna be pretty bad at the next level. 

I think he has an all time great physical package, who throws a great ball when he gets his feat set, but needs a lot of coaching. I wouldn't draft him in the first round, especially not for us. The things to like about Josh Allen are incredibly obvious. The things to not like are also incredibly obvious. I don't get whats so polarizing about him when hes about the most straight forward to evaluate prospect there could ever be. 

1. All time great physical skills

2. Lots of mechanical issues to work out

3. Needs coaching on throwing and decision making

4. Apparently a wildly quick learner who has never received proper coaching. 

 

That's it. If you like him and have a plan to develop him go for it. But if not don't take him. He would be a disaster here. 

[NudeTayne]

5 minutes ago, roger murdock said:

I think he has an all time great physical package, who throws a great ball when he gets his feat set, but needs a lot of coaching. I wouldn't draft him in the first round, especially not for us. The things to like about Josh Allen are incredibly obvious. The things to not like are also incredibly obvious. I don't get whats so polarizing about him when hes about the most straight forward to evaluate prospect there could ever be. 

1. All time great physical skills

2. Lots of mechanical issues to work out

3. Needs coaching on throwing and decision making

4. Apparently a wildly quick learner who has never received proper coaching. 

 

That's it. If you like him and have a plan to develop him go for it. But if not don't take him. He would be a disaster here. 

I can't argue with this. If Dorsey thinks he can be developed, off we go. I'll still be a fan either way. I'd love for the kid to succeed.

[Aztec Hammer]

It’s obvious why Allen is being propped up.

6’4 7/8, 237, 4.75 and a rocket arm that will probably be the strongest in the league from the moment he is drafted.

These are all pretty things. Add that he looked like Michelangelo’s David at the Combine when they stuck him in a sleeveless top and had him stand next to a number of others that couldn’t physically match up to him, and it’s no mystery at all.

Unfortunately for him, none of these things mean anything to whether you are good at football or not. We just have to hope we’re not the team that falls for it.

[Mind Character]

25 minutes ago, NudeTayne said:

Yeah, I'm having a hard time following your logic as well, Candy. I like the dude. He seems like a good guy from a good family who loves football. That said, I don't know what the heck is going on as far as the hype around him. Others have suggested that it's the agent that him and Sam darnold share working through the media to prop them up to get them drafted higher. I actually believe that is what it is. I scratch my head because I watched Josh Allen's pro day and he looked like absolute garbage. He was standing on a field with no pass rush and receivers who are not covered and he still was missing all over the place. He looks like a third-rounder at best just because of his rare size and arm strength. I don't know why he didn't get obliterated other than maybe it's a stacked deck with the media. He was wildly inaccurate, lacked anticipation, and just seem to almost stop before he would make big throws because he was thinking instead of just throwing. He may end up being great, but he looks like a clear bust to me, to be honest. Most quarterbacks talked about top 10 do not look like clear busts, but this is a case where Josh Allen just looks like he is not going to be any good. That said, as a brown fan I fully expect Josh Allen to be our pick. @Mind Character eat your heart out to that level of unfounded pessimism ?.

 

 

 

[NudeTayne]

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

 

 

 

Basically

[Rod Johnson]

1 hour ago, roger murdock said:

I think he has an all time great physical package, who throws a great ball when he gets his feat set, but needs a lot of coaching. I wouldn't draft him in the first round, especially not for us. The things to like about Josh Allen are incredibly obvious. The things to not like are also incredibly obvious. I don't get whats so polarizing about him when hes about the most straight forward to evaluate prospect there could ever be. 

1. All time great physical skills

2. Lots of mechanical issues to work out

3. Needs coaching on throwing and decision making

4. Apparently a wildly quick learner who has never received proper coaching. 

 

That's it. If you like him and have a plan to develop him go for it. But if not don't take him. He would be a disaster here. 

The premise Im extremely hesitant to accept is #4.  How can you know how somebody would receive proper coaching if they've never had it?  Being intelligent doesn't always mean they'll hack the mental aspects of being a QB.

I think of Kizer in that way.  He's obviously bright and intelligent in general.  But he's not good upstairs in the ways that are relevant to playing quarterback.

[DizzyDean]

5 hours ago, roger murdock said:

 

1. Lacking great physical skills

2. Lots of mechanical issues to work out, but no will to do so and absolute refusal to even consider it.

3. Needs coaching on throwing and decision making

 

 

 

Fixed this to make it describe Darnold

[hornbybrown]

Josh Allen is garbage and will continue to be garbage in the NFL. At best he is a mid round prospect who will flame out like almost every other mid round QB prospect. Cody Kessler is going to have a longer career 

[bruceb]

1 hour ago, hornbybrown said:

Josh Allen is garbage and will continue to be garbage in the NFL. At best he is a mid round prospect who will flame out like almost every other mid round QB prospect. Cody Kessler is going to have a longer career 

I think you are right on both counts.