2018 Vikings Draft Prospects - Secondary

[RpMc]

They may be meaningless within the context of how the individual has played, but I think they paint the picture of corner not necessarily being a need on this team. Whether that's due to the individual talent of the player, the players around them, or the scheme can be debated and remains to be seen.

Other than developmental depth, or if a player is shockingly available, I wouldn't want to draft a corner in the top three rounds this year; especially if Newman does indeed come back.

[JDBrocks]

I don't know why Waynes isn't appreciated more. He's improved each year, and in the second half of 2017 was as good a #2 corner as there was in the league. He's developed in this defensive system and the coaching staff trusts him. Why are so many ready to move on from homegrown talent only to start over with another unknown commodity?

[SemperFeist]

6 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

I don't know why Waynes isn't appreciated more. He's improved each year, and in the second half of 2017 was as good a #2 corner as there was in the league. He's developed in this defensive system and the coaching staff trusts him. Why are so many ready to move on from homegrown talent only to start over with another unknown commodity?

Because, for many, if a 1st round pick isn’t an all pro level player as a rookie, they are a bust. And no matter how much they improve, that’s how some will always view that player. 

Especially when said player is taken ahead of a player that those people like more. 

[RpMc]

With Waynes, his biggest detractors are always going to point to the lack of ball skills/turning and finding the football. For me, it comes down to the fact that he's generally in the right spot, has started to limit the big plays/penalties, and he's a reliable tackler despite what his frame would suggest.

[swede700]

3 minutes ago, rpmwr19 said:

With Waynes, his biggest detractors are always going to point to the lack of ball skills/turning and finding the football. For me, it comes down to the fact that he's generally in the right spot, has started to limit the big plays/penalties, and he's a reliable tackler despite what his frame would suggest.

I've always liked Waynes, and thought he was certainly getting better and better.  I think his detractors also tend to constantly compare him to Marcus Peters, because that's who they thought the Vikings should have drafted.  

I personally believe they'll eventually have to let him go, not because he isn't good, but because he's going to be too good...and they won't be able to pay him.  

[CriminalMind]

1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

I wouldn’t be worrying about a CB before day 3. 

Is a metric that shows Newman and Waynes are a better CB by passer rating then Rhodes is actually valid/fair?

I would question the context of this stat.

[marshpit23]

4 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

So you think a metric that shows Newman and Waynes are a better CB by passer rating then Rhodes is actually valid?

I would question the context of this stat.

I believe this metric shows that Xavier is the better CB. He allowed a lower passer rating than both Newman and Waynes.

[CriminalMind]

4 minutes ago, marshpit23 said:

I believe this metric shows that Xavier is the better CB. He allowed a lower passer rating than both Newman and Waynes.

Yes, I must need some coffee, though it shows that Alexander is the best Viking CB according to passing rating, not X.

We all know that Xavier is our best cornerback (likely by far) ... is there a metric that actually shows this, and shows where the other 3 are in relation to other CBs

[Krauser]

3 hours ago, CriminalMind said:

Picking up the option "locks" the funds during that crucial negotiating period (around training camp), where another players/agents will see that we're intent on giving Waynes ~$9M for that one year. It could lead to more complicated negotiations, and an agent will question why should his client (Barr\Hunter\Diggs) take any value-team friendly deal, when we're prepared to overpay an average player in Waynes for $+9M, and likely the weakest part of the defense.

The option doesn't lock in any actual money. Final years of contracts are often renegotiated. No agent would be able to make that argument with a straight face. 

No agent is going to negotiate for Hunter, Diggs, etc based on what Waynes is or isn't getting paid. Hunter's agent will compare him to Olivier Vernon. Diggs' to Davante Adams. Players are happy to see other players get paid. Drafted players are happy to see other draft picks retained by the team. The Vikings have a good track record for treating players well, which has led to them doing pretty well in the open FA market and in being able to retain every single homegrown player they've made a point of keeping for as long as Spielman's been in charge. 

$9M is a completely reasonable one year cap hit for a starting corner. It'll be roughly the 20th highest cap hit for a CB in the league in 2019, based on current contracts. Waynes would take up about the same cap hits as Prince Amukamara, Robert Alford, TJ Carrie, Chris Harris and Aaron Colvin. Totally reasonable to expect Waynes 5th year to be as good as those guys. 

[CriminalMind]

13 minutes ago, Krauser said:

The option doesn't lock in any actual money. Final years of contracts are often renegotiated. No agent would be able to make that argument with a straight face. 

No agent is going to negotiate for Hunter, Diggs, etc based on what Waynes is or isn't getting paid. Hunter's agent will compare him to Olivier Vernon. Diggs' to Davante Adams. Players are happy to see other players get paid. Drafted players are happy to see other draft picks retained by the team. The Vikings have a good track record for treating players well, which has led to them doing pretty well in the open FA market and in being able to retain every single homegrown player they've made a point of keeping for as long as Spielman's been in charge. 

$9M is a completely reasonable one year cap hit for a starting corner. It'll be roughly the 20th highest cap hit for a CB in the league in 2019, based on current contracts. Waynes would take up about the same cap hits as Prince Amukamara, Robert Alford, TJ Carrie, Chris Harris and Aaron Colvin. Totally reasonable to expect Waynes 5th year to be as good as those guys. 

Drafted players are happy to see other draft picks be retained by the team. But if/when it squeezes the amount of money available at the time of negotiations, it could lead to a better chance that one of our more valued free agents decides to play out his final year instead of being retained on an extension. So it could increase our chances of a) losing the better player b) having to pay higher for the better player than originally if signed as a free agent

$9M may sound reasonable to you ... but it its going to the 9-10th best player on defense, but he is paid as the ~5/7th highest viking player ... that could be a problem.

Knowing who to give money too, is going to be the key for this organization over the next year, and they likely don't want to get off on a bad note.

[Krauser]

Just now, CriminalMind said:

But if/when it squeezes the amount of money available at the time of negotiations, it could lead to a better chance that one of our more valued free agents decides to play out his final year instead of being retained on an extension. So it could increase our chances of a) losing the better player b) having to pay higher for the better player than originally if signed as a free agent

If the Vikings have less money, they can't make as good an offer, and that hurts their chances of retaining players long term. That's just math, not based on some perception of "everyone watching" them "overpaying an average player". 

Thankfully, the upcoming contract extensions can be structured to work around the cost of Waynes option. For instance, pay Hunter a signing bonus this year and have a low cap hit but fully guaranteed 2019. If Brezinski is a cap wizard, this won't be too much for him to handle. You can bet the Vikings have been expecting to pay Waynes in year 5, he'll have been in their budget all along. 

If you just want to replace Waynes because you think he's not good enough, I get that argument. I disagree -- I think he's fine in his current role, and the team can rely on him to play CB2 for 2 more years, and would rather spend draft capital elsewhere this year  --  but at least that's more realistic than your theory about a domino effect on multiple other contract negotiations.

 

 

[CriminalMind]

4 minutes ago, Krauser said:

If the Vikings have less money, they can't make as good an offer, and that hurts their chances of retaining players long term. That's just math, not based on some perception of "everyone watching" them "overpaying an average player". 

Well, technically its both math and possibly the perception of "why should my client take a team friendly deal just because you overpaid an average player"

4 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Thankfully, the upcoming contract extensions can be structured to work around the cost of Waynes option. For instance, pay Hunter a signing bonus this year and have a low cap hit but fully guaranteed 2019. If Brezinski is a cap wizard, this won't be too much for him to handle. You can bet the Vikings have been expecting to pay Waynes in year 5, he'll have been in their budget all along. 

Of course a contract can be structure this way, but your asking Hunter/Diggs extensions to be worked around further constraints by Waynes contract, which ultimately could lead to higher risk that either player leaves. 3 years ago the team looked very different when Waynes was drafted, of course they penciled in an extension for Waynes at the time, but its also unlikely at that time they thought they would also (thankfully) be in position to retain better players acquired at lower picks, that may take priority.

4 minutes ago, Krauser said:

If you just want to replace Waynes because you think he's not good enough, I get that argument. I disagree -- I think he's fine in his current role, and the team can rely on him to play CB2 for 2 more years, and would rather spend draft capital elsewhere this year  --  but at least that's more realistic than your theory about a domino effect on multiple other contract negotiations.

I don't think Waynes is good enough to warrant this extension, and the constraints it could put on extensions to at least 3 better players (Hunter/Diggs/Richardson/Barr). I rather risk losing Waynes then either of these 4 players. That's my priority.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

Well, technically its both math and possibly the perception of "why should my client take a team friendly deal just because you overpaid an average player"

Of course a contract can be structure this way, but your asking Hunter/Diggs extensions to be worked around further constraints by Waynes contract, which ultimately could lead to higher risk that either player leaves. 3 years ago the team looked very different when Waynes was drafted, of course they penciled in an extension for Waynes at the time, but its also unlikely at that time they thought they would also (thankfully) be in position to retain better players acquired at lower picks, that may take priority.

I don't think Waynes is good enough to warrant this extension, and the constraints it could put on extensions to at least 3 better players (Hunter/Diggs/Richardson/Barr). I rather risk losing Waynes then either of these 4 players. That's my priority.

I really think Waynes is being sold short here.  I think he's good and getting better.  He's coachable. He has worked extremely hard on some of the finer nuances of playing the position...and, he seems to be a good teammate/locker room guy.  I agree that the Vikings need to consider all the challenges to contracts for Barr, Diggs, Hunter, etc...but I suspect Waynes is just as valuable to the defense presently as Hunter is!

[CriminalMind]

13 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I agree that the Vikings need to consider all the challenges to contracts for Barr, Diggs, Hunter, etc...but I suspect Waynes is just as valuable to the defense presently as Hunter is!

I personally have Barr, Diggs, Hunter, Richardson ahead of Waynes ... which is why I prefer to potentially prioritize those players instead of Waynes (for now). Even if you don't pick up the 5th option for Waynes, you can still retain him after this season through negotiations. We'll have that choice. We'll also have the option of just taking the comp pick. I prefer we delay the commitment.

[JDBrocks]

I don’t know if he is as valuable as Hunter is. Hunter is a young difference maker at the 2nd most important position on the field. He’s in rarified company in terms of production with an extremely small sample size comparatively. 

That said, I don’t think that that precludes the Vikings need to retain young, experienced, homegrown talent. 

Jettisoning good young players for comp picks isn’t a good idea. Idk when future comp picks became more valuable than present performance of known quantities.