Jets trade up to 3

[Bianconero]

I always hear Side A (the good side) from some posters but never the bad side (Side B)

Then when it doesn't work its just pushed under the rug

---

Josh Allen and Christian Hackenberg are in the same boat in terms of being a raw prospect

Color it however you want, but that's not what we need at #3 - We're not the Patriots who can afford that luxury

[jetskid007]

Just now, Johntyler82 said:

Not sure why, they even have the same hair color. 

1. The fact that you rely on "stats" as an argument.
2. You can't spell the man's name. 

[Rich51]

5 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

FYI - I stopped reading after this phrase. 

My floor for Allen would be  Jay Cutler

[KBS756]

 

35 minutes ago, SDotNova said:

So does this mean we want the Bills to jump us? They jump us to get Allen and we get our guy. Everyone is happy. 

Baker and Allen are "my guys" ... lamar jackson if we were taking a 2nd round project which we aren't 

[KBS756]

9 minutes ago, Rich51 said:

My floor for Allen would be  Jay Cutler

if thats his floor might as well put him on the top of our board 

Yea Cutler isnt a world beater but even with less than stellar supporting casts (O line) he had some significantly good years (and had his teams be far worse when he didnt play) 

85.3 QB rating career 

40% more TDs than INTs

most of his career behind questionable at best O Lines

if thats the floor ... id draft him in a heartbeat

[jetskid007]

3 minutes ago, Bianconero said:

Josh Allen and Christian Hackenberg are in the same boat in terms of being a raw prospect

They're not though- that's the thing. 

Hackenberg wasn't raw from a mental-side. He was fairly advanced. His mechanics were a complete mess, his pocket presence and internal clock were busted, he was seeing ghosts and was dropping his eyes, and he had lost his confidence. His development was structured on tearing down the old bad habits (which is not an easy thing to do) and "re-build" them. They wanted him to focus on learning the offense and how to read defenses in Gailey's "Spread/Erhardt Perkins" scheme (deep-to-short), then use the offseason to work on his mechanical flaws, then be ready to compete for the starting job in TC. Instead, Gailey retired and they hired a whole new staff, which meant an entirely new playbook, a new scheme and defensive read philosophy, and different coaching views on a QBs mechanics. That was never the plan with Hackenberg, and the Jets made a mistake thinking he would be able readjust so easily. 

Allen is a completely different player. He really wasn't ever mechanically sound, and he's just now getting his footwork down and we've seen tremendous improvement in a short amount of time. He didn't have to relearn college offenses - he's been playing in the same pro-style offense the past 3 years. His internal clock works, he always keeps his eyes downfield, and he's clearly got confidence (just watch his final game). The bigger thing with him is footwork, decision making, and reading defenses - all of which can be taught and improved. 

 

Hackenberg: reclamation project

Josh Allen: blank canvas

[mattmanz91]

27 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

Jeremy Bates was not here for Hackenberg's first year. He was not here for Petty first two years. He was not here for Geno. 

I think the biggest downfall for Hack and Petty was Gailey retiring. It threw a wrench into their development, and both were already fragile prospects. They essentially needed to relearn everything that they did under Gailey plus take on a much larger workload. Hackenberg was smart enough, but a person only has so much time in one day. All the time he should've used focusing on the mechanical flaws, reading defenses, and getting better had to be devoted towards learning a new playbook. Same can be said for Petty. Not everyone is Jared Goff, and not every situation plays out where a QB gets one of the top offensive gurus in the game become their HC after a poor rookie season. In most cases, firing a coaching staff a year after drafting a QB doesn't end well... 

For those reasons stated above, I don't think their failures can be pinned on Bates. They were not great fits for the WCO, had a much bigger playbook to learn, and had to relearn a whole new passing concept in one offseason. What would be a failure is if we draft a QB, then make wholesale changes to our coaching staff if we don't perform well this year. Need to give Bates 2 years with whoever we draft. We have a lot of QB coaching "gurus" on our offense. In fact Bates, Dennison, Lombardi, Johnson, Dorrell all have QB coaching experience - Bates/Dennison/Dorrell in the same scheme - and McCown is a QB coach in-waiting. That's 5 coaches out of the 8 offensive coaches we employ. We need to take advantage of that. I do believe the new-look Jets will be far more QB-centric then we have ever seen with Woody Johnson as owner. They're seriously committed to solving the decade-long problem and considering how invested they are in the process, they will be dedicated to the coaching staff in order to see that it works out. I think the main reason why they gave the keys to Bates was for that exact reason: they want him to have complete say how to handle the new QBs instead of dealing with a power struggle between Bates, Morton, and Bowles. 

I wish there was a super like button, this is an excellent post. I want Rosen badly, but if he's gone I wouldn't be mad with Allen. For once I feel like we have the right coaching for a young QB and if Allen reaches his ceiling (a big if, I know) we didn't just hit a home run we hit a grand slam. 

[Bobby816]

31 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

Jeremy Bates was not here for Hackenberg's first year. He was not here for Petty first two years. He was not here for Geno. 

I think the biggest downfall for Hack and Petty was Gailey retiring. It threw a wrench into their development, and both were already fragile prospects. They essentially needed to relearn everything that they did under Gailey plus take on a much larger workload. Hackenberg was smart enough, but a person only has so much time in one day. All the time he should've used focusing on the mechanical flaws, reading defenses, and getting better had to be devoted towards learning a new playbook. Same can be said for Petty. Not everyone is Jared Goff, and not every situation plays out where a QB gets one of the top offensive gurus in the game become their HC after a poor rookie season. In most cases, firing a coaching staff a year after drafting a QB doesn't end well... 

For those reasons stated above, I don't think their failures can be pinned on Bates. They were not great fits for the WCO, had a much bigger playbook to learn, and had to relearn a whole new passing concept in one offseason. What would be a failure is if we draft a QB, then make wholesale changes to our coaching staff if we don't perform well this year. Need to give Bates 2 years with whoever we draft. We have a lot of QB coaching "gurus" on our offense. In fact Bates, Dennison, Lombardi, Johnson, Dorrell all have QB coaching experience - Bates/Dennison/Dorrell in the same scheme - and McCown is a QB coach in-waiting. That's 5 coaches out of the 8 offensive coaches we employ. We need to take advantage of that. I do believe the new-look Jets will be far more QB-centric then we have ever seen with Woody Johnson as owner. They're seriously committed to solving the decade-long problem and considering how invested they are in the process, they will be dedicated to the coaching staff in order to see that it works out. I think the main reason why they gave the keys to Bates was for that exact reason: they want him to have complete say how to handle the new QBs instead of dealing with a power struggle between Bates, Morton, and Bowles. 

That can mean 5 different philosophies to confuse a young QB.

[KodiakThunder]

5 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

They're not though- that's the thing. 

Hackenberg wasn't raw from a mental-side. He was fairly advanced. His mechanics were a complete mess, his pocket presence and internal clock were busted, he was seeing ghosts and was dropping his eyes, and he had lost his confidence. His development was structured on tearing down the old bad habits (which is not an easy thing to do) and "re-build" them. They wanted him to focus on learning the offense and how to read defenses in Gailey's "Spread/Erhardt Perkins" scheme (deep-to-short), then use the offseason to work on his mechanical flaws, then be ready to compete for the starting job in TC. Instead, Gailey retired and they hired a whole new staff, which meant an entirely new playbook, a new scheme and defensive read philosophy, and different coaching views on a QBs mechanics. That was never the plan with Hackenberg, and the Jets made a mistake thinking he would be able readjust so easily. 

Allen is a completely different player. He really wasn't ever mechanically sound, and he's just now getting his footwork down and we've seen tremendous improvement in a short amount of time. He didn't have to relearn college offenses - he's been playing in the same pro-style offense the past 3 years. His internal clock works, he always keeps his eyes downfield, and he's clearly got confidence (just watch his final game). The bigger thing with him is footwork, decision making, and reading defenses - all of which can be taught and improved. 

 

Hackenberg: reclamation project

Josh Allen: blank canvas

The issue is oversimplification

One raw qb isnt the same as another raw qb. 

Some raw qbs develop into high level players and some dont. Hackenberg being raw does not mean Allen being raw is the same prospect or will have the same success or lack thereof.

 

[Johntyler82]

15 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

1. The fact that you rely on "stats" as an argument.
2. You can't spell the man's name. 

"Rely on stats" ? Just because you personally think that they dont matter doesn't mean that they can' be used to form opinions based off of limited info of a college recruit. 

And who cares if I spell his name wrong honestly? He isn't ever going to play a snap for us, so what does that have to do with anything. 

[Bianconero]

2 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

They're not though- that's the thing. 

Hackenberg wasn't raw from a mental-side. He was fairly advanced. His mechanics were a complete mess, his pocket presence and internal clock were busted, he was seeing ghosts and was dropping his eyes, and he had lost his confidence. His development was structured on tearing down the old bad habits (which is not an easy thing to do) and "re-build" them. They wanted him to focus on learning the offense and how to read defenses in Gailey's "Spread/Erhardt Perkins" scheme (deep-to-short), then use the offseason to work on his mechanical flaws, then be ready to compete for the starting job in TC. Instead, Gailey retired and they hired a whole new staff, which meant an entirely new playbook, a new scheme and defensive read philosophy, and different coaching views on a QBs mechanics. That was never the plan with Hackenberg, and the Jets made a mistake thinking he would be able readjust so easily. 

Allen is a completely different player. He really wasn't ever mechanically sound, and he's just now getting his footwork down and we've seen tremendous improvement in a short amount of time. He didn't have to relearn college offenses - he's been playing in the same pro-style offense the past 3 years. His internal clock works, he always keeps his eyes downfield, and he's clearly got confidence (just watch his final game). The bigger thing with him is footwork, decision making, and reading defenses - all of which can be taught and improved. 

 

Hackenberg: reclamation project

Josh Allen: blank canvas

While I see what you're saying, at the end of the day a reclamation project and a blank canvas are both starting in the same boat. Both have some good starting points, which is why they are being talked about/were drafted early in the draft, but also a lot of question marks and and "bad" if you will that need a lot of proper attention, development, and focus given to.

We compare our situation with the Rams and Goff and the Eagles with Wentz but let's be honest with each other; we don't have the staffs that these teams have.

Literally everyone on the Rams staff is an offensive guru and a former QB; same with Wentz and the Eagles staff

Look at Goff with Jeff Fisher his first year; are we much different? Do we even know for sure?

That is why we shouldn't be targeting reclamation projects or blank canvas'; we need to draft a guy like Rosen who doesn't need his hand held because again quite simply, we don't have anyone who knows how to hold a QB's hand.

[BJets512]

1 minute ago, KodiakThunder said:

The issue is oversimplification

One raw qb isnt the same as another raw qb. 

Some raw qbs develop into high level players and some dont. Hackenberg being raw does not mean Allen being raw is the same prospect or will have the same success or lack thereof.

 

I'm simply saying I don't want a "Raw" prospect. Give us someone who is ready and doesn't need to rely on coaching for the basic fundamentals of quarterbacking. 

[KodiakThunder]

Just now, Johntyler82 said:

"Rely on stats" ? Just because you personally think that they dont matter doesn't mean that they can' be used to form opinions based off of limited info of a college recruit. 

And who cares if I spell his name wrong honestly? He isn't ever going to play a snap for us, so what does that have to do with anything. 

College stats arent meaningless but must be taken with a grain of salt. 

Most front offices struggle with this though. At the end of the day most teams rely on tape and use stats as a quide. 

[KBS756]

2 minutes ago, jetskid007 said:

They're not though- that's the thing. 

Hackenberg wasn't raw from a mental-side. He was fairly advanced. His mechanics were a complete mess, his pocket presence and internal clock were busted, he was seeing ghosts and was dropping his eyes, and he had lost his confidence. His development was structured on tearing down the old bad habits (which is not an easy thing to do) and "re-build" them. They wanted him to focus on learning the offense and how to read defenses in Gailey's "Spread/Erhardt Perkins" scheme (deep-to-short), then use the offseason to work on his mechanical flaws, then be ready to compete for the starting job in TC. Instead, Gailey retired and they hired a whole new staff, which meant an entirely new playbook, a new scheme and defensive read philosophy, and different coaching views on a QBs mechanics. That was never the plan with Hackenberg, and the Jets made a mistake thinking he would be able readjust so easily. 

Allen is a completely different player. He really wasn't ever mechanically sound, and he's just now getting his footwork down and we've seen tremendous improvement in a short amount of time. He didn't have to relearn college offenses - he's been playing in the same pro-style offense the past 3 years. His internal clock works, he always keeps his eyes downfield, and he's clearly got confidence (just watch his final game). The bigger thing with him is footwork, decision making, and reading defenses - all of which can be taught and improved. 

 

Hackenberg: reclamation project

Josh Allen: blank canvas

Mostly agree with this

Allen too seems teachable ... started out the senior bowl week horribly drastically improved as it went on.

Hackenberg ... god he plays scared even in the preseason when they do let him outta the punishment corner or whatever hes in... Allen doesnt seem broken at all in that respect he lets it fly (he's a gunslinger and im ok with that)

(anyone have a breakdown of our current prospects and where most of their throws went and completion percentages at different levels)

Allen's team also did lose the 2 games without him. this season.

And as someone mentioned earlier ... didnt exactly have a great O line giving him time ... or WRs giving him windows ... he made some awesome throws and lived on broken plays.

(Side note some commentators mentioned they thought rosen wouldn't be good in a windy bad weather stadium)

[KodiakThunder]

Just now, BJets512 said:

I'm simply saying I don't want a "Raw" prospect. Give us someone who is ready and doesn't need to rely on coaching for the basic fundamentals of quarterbacking. 

Thats called a free agent haha.