Bell wants $17 mil; Ronald Jones rumor?

[43M]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

For the most part this board is pretty smart in knowing who to put the blame on. 

Its a case by case basis.  

However, if Bell isnt here this year and the offense stagnates, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be flipping out that we lost Bell.    Fact of the matter is, even without Bell, this offense has more than enough talent to succeed.  Certain areas will be affected, but there is no reason this offense shouldnt still be top 10. Top 5 QB, best WR in the game, top 3 receiving corps, top 5-7 OLine.   If our offense isnt goood, it is far more likely it will be due to injuries, Ben regressing or the offensive coordinator not being much better than Haley. 

Again, not saying losing Bell wont have negative affects, but that alone isnt going to make the offense ineffective.    Last time I checked, we have had good offense WITHOUT Bell, including 2015 when we still finished top 5 on offense despite Bell missing most of the season.

[3rivers]

As for the board imploding, I think the D will make that happen before Bell leaving does, since I think we will do well with most other decent to good RB's anyways. 

Would any of the fans here even have this thread if there was no salary cap or with a cap yet if we had a good D? My reasons for not wanting them to sign Bell start with the cap and the repairs needed on D.  What bortles did yo us at home should be more of a priority to fix than signing Bell, because IIRC he didn't help us win that game did he? 

Can Bell be traded? How does that work with the franchise tag?  It would help if they could sort all this out before the draft, but I doubt it happens.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, FourThreeMafia said:

Its a case by case basis.  

However, if Bell isnt here this year and the offense stagnates, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be flipping out that we lost Bell.    Fact of the matter is, even without Bell, this offense has more than enough talent to succeed.  Certain areas will be affected, but there is no reason this offense shouldnt still be top 10. Top 5 QB, best WR in the game, top 3 receiving corps, top 5-7 OLine.   If our offense isnt goood, it is far more likely it will be due to injuries, Ben regressing or the offensive coordinator not being much better than Haley. 

Again, not saying losing Bell wont have negative affects, but that alone isnt going to make the offense ineffective.    Last time I checked, we have had good offense WITHOUT Bell, including 2015 when we still finished top 5 on offense despite Bell missing most of the season.

Yea. 

 

I also put somewhere else: we have stagnant moments even with Bell and being considered an “elite” offense. At the cost of our defense being average. 

Without Bell we could still be a good offense, and add a good defense too. 

Mat the price of Bells tag this offseason we could have added: Tyronn Mathieu, Alex Okafor, and Isaiah Crowell; along with Burnett and Bostic; and used a second on Guice/Michel/Chubb; and used a first on Evans. 

So upgrade at FS and SS, add a rotational pass rusher, have a collection of backs that could give you the same production as Bell, and still use the draft to plug another need. 

Instead we kept Bell and put the stress of improving the defense on draft and develop. 

The more I sit here the more I wish we could have pulled off letting Bell walk and added those three. 

[warfelg]

21 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

 

Can Bell be traded? How does that work with the franchise tag?  It would help if they could sort all this out before the draft, but I doubt it happens.

He can be traded by either signing the tag or by agreeing to a new contract before the trade. They can also agree to sign the tag, trade him, and then he signs a new extension that has reverse offset to take money off our books. 

If we did trade him, I see it the same as if NYG trade OBJr. It’s going to be done contingent that he signs an extension. 

[Alex]

This year's draft class may not be the best, but I think we will love this one the most.

I've been looking around and looking at the prospects- I have absolutely no clue who we will grab and that's what makes this exciting.

We have players in place, we signed Burnett and Bostic, both who frankly are the best stop-gap players we could have got. We have the luxury of going purely BPA in the draft.

That's why I think the Steelers are entertaining the trades; not because they want to trade Bell because the draft will be dictating the situation. We should be glad about this, for the sake of our team, we would be getting the best players available regardless. The Steelers are going to target everybody else; whether that's Derrick Guice, Lamar Jackson, Goebert, Ronald Jones, or other players. BPA!

The way I see it; if we could get some certain players like say, Justin Reid, then I can see us going for the Texans trade. If we got Guice or Jones; Redskins trade looks good.

We aren't in a win-lose situation, once Bell signs the tender we have the entire control over the situation and we can decide whether to trade him or not, again- the draft will decide Bell's fate.

As the fan, you should be happy we are in this situation, unlike the Redskins-Cousin situation. Nobody wants to trade for 29 years old above average quarterback. 

That's just my 2 cents, I'm just waiting on who's the BPA on the board.

[Armsteeld2]

13 hours ago, FourThreeMafia said:

The board is far more likely to implode due to poor playcalling, bad coaching decisions and terrible defensive play than how we play without LeVeon.

Anyway, still waiting to hear the logic about how RBs are just as important as QBs.

RBs have always been as important as QBs.  Just the average fan has been brainwashed the last 10 years about how important QBs are. The truth is they’re not.  

An average QB can thrive with a good RB.  An average RB can thrive with a good QB.  Football is about balance.  Rules were changed for the passing game so the offenses could score more points.  Defenses had got so good that fans started complaining.  Then along comes fantasy football and it’s mainly based off offense and the league sees the opportunity to make more ?.  Now everyone just throws the ball as much as possible and that’s another reason why many teams struggle in the red zone because they don’t have a good RB or a good run blocking team.  The Steelers would be so much better if they committed to running the football more in the red zone.

[CKSteeler]

2 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

RBs have always been as important as QBs.  Just the average fan has been brainwashed the last 10 years about how important QBs are. The truth is they’re not.  

An average QB can thrive with a good RB.  An average RB can thrive with a good QB.  Football is about balance.  Rules were changed for the passing game so the offenses could score more points.  Defenses had got so good that fans started complaining.  Then along comes fantasy football and it’s mainly based off offense and the league sees the opportunity to make more ?.  Now everyone just throws the ball as much as possible and that’s another reason why many teams struggle in the red zone because they don’t have a good RB or a good run blocking team.  The Steelers would be so much better if they committed to running the football more in the red zone.

This entire argument misses the point. You don't pay guys based on perceived "importance." You pay them based on supply and demand. There are very few guys who play QB at a top level. And you can sit here and say average QB's can thrive with a great RB. But we don't see many examples of them winning it all or even making it that far without the top QB. How many playoff games did the Vikings win with Adrian Peterson? What about Walter Peyton? As a Steelers fan, what did Jerome Bettis accomplish in the post-season?

You can point to a few exceptions. You can point to recent results - last years playoffs. Though, to be blunt, we definitely weren't seeing the best 4 RB's even in the playoffs represented. Fournette was hardly the game changer he was painted as or that Coughlin hoped on the field.

But to get back to that first point - there are far more guys who can successfully run the ball than who can throw the ball at the highest levels. What Ben Roethlisberger does is significantly rarer than what Leveon Bell does. There are more players closer to Bell in talent level than there are those to Roethlisberger's. It's far, far easier to find a guy who will replace most if not all of Bell's production than it is Roethlisberger's. That's why you pay the QB and don't pay the RB the same way.

To go a step further, you want to sit here and talk about the passing and rushing attack complimenting one another while ignoring the factor of the OL.

You're over here arguing something closer to the labor value theory. Bell is important and deserves to get paid! RB's take more physical punishment than most positions. They get a lot of attention, but ultimately are not valued as highly for very good reasons.

[Armsteeld2]

55 minutes ago, CKSteeler said:

This entire argument misses the point. You don't pay guys based on perceived "importance." You pay them based on supply and demand. There are very few guys who play QB at a top level. And you can sit here and say average QB's can thrive with a great RB. But we don't see many examples of them winning it all or even making it that far without the top QB. How many playoff games did the Vikings win with Adrian Peterson? What about Walter Peyton? As a Steelers fan, what did Jerome Bettis accomplish in the post-season?

You can point to a few exceptions. You can point to recent results - last years playoffs. Though, to be blunt, we definitely weren't seeing the best 4 RB's even in the playoffs represented. Fournette was hardly the game changer he was painted as or that Coughlin hoped on the field.

But to get back to that first point - there are far more guys who can successfully run the ball than who can throw the ball at the highest levels. What Ben Roethlisberger does is significantly rarer than what Leveon Bell does. There are more players closer to Bell in talent level than there are those to Roethlisberger's. It's far, far easier to find a guy who will replace most if not all of Bell's production than it is Roethlisberger's. That's why you pay the QB and don't pay the RB the same way.

To go a step further, you want to sit here and talk about the passing and rushing attack complimenting one another while ignoring the factor of the OL.

You're over here arguing something closer to the labor value theory. Bell is important and deserves to get paid! RB's take more physical punishment than most positions. They get a lot of attention, but ultimately are not valued as highly for very good reasons.

Besides David Johnson, who can do what Bell does at that level?  The QB benefits from the entire team so to say the OL helps Bell is crazy.  Ben is not an elite QB anymore.  I don’t look at Box scores but I watched Ben constantly missing open receivers.  He misses way too many wide open deep balls as well.  

Way too much to counter but I’ll leave it as it is.  Hopefully Bell is resigned because I like his overall game.  If not, then I’ll be happy for him with his new team.  RBs are underpaid and if he wants to be the one to try to change the market, I’m cool with it.  I want the best players on the team and that’s on the team to figure out how to make it work.  

[CKSteeler]

I like how you say Ben isn't an elite QB "anymore." I defy you to name more than one other QB who could have made the throws he did against Jacksonville. If you want to claim he isn't elite, that's a separate argument. But that's not what you argued. The arm talent on display this past January was incredible, and it was at the end of the year. By comparison, I think that catch Bell made against Jacksonville was one maybe 5 he's made in his career that made me think he could be a legit WR. Ben made more elite throws in that game than Bell has elite catches in his career. Ben's throw to Bell was perfect. Bell's catch was good for a RB. So, Ben made some poor decisions early in the game. But not one was based on losing physical talent. So unless the argument is that he's dumber now, you have nothing.

Bell blocks well. No denying that.

You want to sit here and talk about RB's who can do what Bell does. I'll just go back to the fact that you can find guys who will get the same production Bell does for a fraction of the cost. And it's not hard at all. The Steelers were middling or worse in every rushing statistic last year. They led the league in rushing with an almost washed up DeAngelo Williams when he was suspended (and, I'll add, Williams contributed plenty as a receiver).

Does Bell have homerun speed? Does he stretch a defense vertically? Haha no. David Johnson does. Which isn't to say David Johnson is better, but David Johnson isn't going to demand $17 million a year. I'll bet he doesn't even demand 150% of what the nearest RB is making.

To add to that point, what do teams FEAR when they play the Steelers? I'd love you to answer that one question. If you were playing the Steelers, do you fear Bell and his performance against KC last year in the playoffs or do you fear that passing attack clicking? What are you going to gear your defense up for?
 

No one wants Bell gone. They don't want to see a RB with his issues, and there are many issues, paid that amount of money.

[AFF]

In the 15(IIRC) games DeAngelo Williams started in his 2 years, his stats are almost identical to Bells career avg over 15 games...

Not saying Bell isn’t great...but he’s not great on 1600 or so career touches already at AAV of $15 mill plus.

They coulda went with  say Conner/signed Dion Lewis or Rex Burkhead/mid to late rd RB like say Auburn RB Johnson and got some solid production.

[Blitzburgh]

This whole argument about QBs is laughable.  Look at the last 20 Super Bowls.  There are maybe 4 Super Bowls won by mediocre QBs.  The rest were won by elite QBs.  I’m sure I could go back even further.

[warfelg]

13 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

Besides David Johnson, who can do what Bell does at that level?  The QB benefits from the entire team so to say the OL helps Bell is crazy.  Ben is not an elite QB anymore.  I don’t look at Box scores but I watched Ben constantly missing open receivers.  He misses way too many wide open deep balls as well.  

Way too much to counter but I’ll leave it as it is.  Hopefully Bell is resigned because I like his overall game.  If not, then I’ll be happy for him with his new team.  RBs are underpaid and if he wants to be the one to try to change the market, I’m cool with it.  I want the best players on the team and that’s on the team to figure out how to make it work.  

Gurley can do it. Kamara and Hunt seem to be able to. McCoy does it but doesn’t get the love for it. Elliot isn’t used as much in the passing game but he breaks them off regularly. 

Dont get me wrong I love Bell, but “best all round RB” is a lot closer argument than most Steeler fans would make it out to be. 

[3rivers]

1 hour ago, warfelg said:

Gurley can do it. Kamara and Hunt seem to be able to. McCoy does it but doesn’t get the love for it. Elliot isn’t used as much in the passing game but he breaks them off regularly. 

Dont get me wrong I love Bell, but “best all round RB” is a lot closer argument than most Steeler fans would make it out to be. 

 I would say 2 seasons ago, Bell was tops, but what about the RB in arizona, he can do everything that bell does. I agree with the bold

[43M]

23 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

RBs have always been as important as QBs.  Just the average fan has been brainwashed the last 10 years about how important QBs are. The truth is they’re not.  

An average QB can thrive with a good RB.  An average RB can thrive with a good QB.  Football is about balance.  Rules were changed for the passing game so the offenses could score more points.  Defenses had got so good that fans started complaining.  Then along comes fantasy football and it’s mainly based off offense and the league sees the opportunity to make more ?.  Now everyone just throws the ball as much as possible and that’s another reason why many teams struggle in the red zone because they don’t have a good RB or a good run blocking team.  The Steelers would be so much better if they committed to running the football more in the red zone.

Sorry, but nothing you said proves anything in regards to RBs being as important as QBs.  Insulting people who dont agree with your stance as being "brainwashed casual fans" doesnt reflect well on you when there is far more logic and factual evidence to disprove your stance than there is to prove you right.

In fact, you actually noted what has made QBs far more important than RBs....rule changes.   As Ive already stated...20-30 years ago, your argument held alot more weight...but since rule changes have opened up the passing game?  Yeah, QBs are far more important in todays game...and there isnt much of an argument to support the contrary. 

[CKSteeler]

Last year, NE got 1714 rushing yards out of their RB's. The Steelers 1543.

Patriots backs had 912 receiving yards. Leveon Bell had 655. With Fitz thrown in, they go up to 663.

Patriots RB's scored 24 times. Steelers 13.

Patriots RB's touched the ball 420 times. Steelers 472 times. In fact, in 15 games, Bell touched the ball nearly as much as NE"s entire backfield (406). So, it's pretty clear that NE's rushing attack was significantly more efficient and they were getting more production from these guys as receivers.

Patriots used $10.3 mil of their cap for the luxury. The Steelers were over $15 million with Bell and Connor. You can add another $1m for the other guys.

There's scheme differences here. Some will point to Tom Brady, but I'll just be blunt again - teams don't sell out to stop the run against Pittsburgh. They can't. And we could go past NE to look at a number of other teams and the production they're getting versus costs invested in the position as well as touches given.