2019 Draft Talk

[VikeManDan]

20 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

But let's say 4 or 5 offensive linemen go in the first 17 picks (most of them reaches by desperate teams...but not inconceivable) what kind of choices will be available by 18?

IF this happens some serious talent will be pushed down the board to us at 18. Right now I see maybe 2-3 OL going before 18.

Jonah Williams

Greg Little

Jawaan Taylor

Captain obvious statement ahead: In regards to playing the draft board you'd either take your next OL (could be a reach), trade down (need two to tango), or take BPA (could likely be a DL in the above scenario - wouldn't be the end of the world IMO). 

The more I think about it I'm not sure the Vikes stay at 18, I know it takes two to tango, but we only have 5 picks, 1.18, 2.50, 3.82, 4.114, and 6.178. This does NOT account for any potential comp picks that are awarded - think we're in line for 3, thanks for nothing Arizona. Spielman is already working from behind the 8-ball as he's said he likes to have 10 picks (I think he's said that). Definitely an interesting and crucial off-season and draft ahead.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, JDBrocks said:

wow. That's exactly what I've proposed that they DON'T do. 

My hope is that Stefanski and the new OL coach are able to maximize the talent of the players currently on the roster. I don't know what (if any) changes have been made in the types of players that they are scouting/skill sets they are looking for. If the right OL is available and fits the new offensive scheme, by all means, I hope they draft that player. If the board falls in a way that there is a highly rated defensive lineman or safety that falls in their lap, I hope they pull the trigger. Same with TE or WR. Making up your mind in December that it's "trade up in the 1st for an OL or bust" is a terrible strategy. period.

If they have to trade up for an OL, which guy are they trading up for? Which player are they going to take that is going to make an immediate impact that they absolutely can't miss out on?

Your "hope for the best" approach of coaching/scheming up the Vikings present linemen also seems like a terrible strategy in the Kirk Cousins era.  I don't think, with the exception of O'Neill, that they are going to improve.  If we had kept Keenum as the QB then, yes, I would agree with your strategy 100%.  Not because Keenum will produce better statistics than Cousins, but because he handled the pressure from the rush much better than Cousins and hide the deficiencies of the line. My thinking is that the 2017 offensive line was just as bad as the 2018 line, but the QB in 2017 made them look much better than they really are.  While I agree that having the correct scheme and a good offensive line coach is really, really important, we will have the same starting QB as we did last season.  To maximize his "talents" he will need an above average line to protect him in the pocket and power block in the running attack to keep Cousins from thinking he has to do to much. 

I actually think Zimmer and Spielman are most likely in a no win situation...whatever approach they take to improve the offensive line in 2019 will not show immediate dividends.  Then the Vikings will be looking for a new HC and staff, a new GM and front office staff, and probably looking desperately for the "next" franchise quarterback.

[Forge]

5 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

 

The more I think about it I'm not sure the Vikes stay at 18, I know it takes two to tango, but we only have 5 picks, 1.18, 2.50, 3.82, 4.114, and 6.178. This does NOT account for any potential comp picks that are awarded - think we're in line for 3, thanks for nothing Arizona. Spielman is already working from behind the 8-ball as he's said he likes to have 10 picks (I think he's said that). Definitely an interesting and crucial off-season and draft ahead.

FWIW, OTC recently released their compensatory projections and did have you guys slotted for 3; a 6th and two 7ths. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, VikeManDan said:

IF this happens some serious talent will be pushed down the board to us at 18. Right now I see maybe 2-3 OL going before 18.

Jonah Williams

Greg Little

Jawaan Taylor

Captain obvious statement ahead: In regards to playing the draft board you'd either take your next OL (could be a reach), trade down (need two to tango), or take BPA (could likely be a DL in the above scenario - wouldn't be the end of the world IMO). 

The more I think about it I'm not sure the Vikes stay at 18, I know it takes two to tango, but we only have 5 picks, 1.18, 2.50, 3.82, 4.114, and 6.178. This does NOT account for any potential comp picks that are awarded - think we're in line for 3, thanks for nothing Arizona. Spielman is already working from behind the 8-ball as he's said he likes to have 10 picks (I think he's said that). Definitely an interesting and crucial off-season and draft ahead.

I agree.  If Spielman and Zimmer cannot solve the offensive line problem this offseason (and I suspect that can't, truthfully) they will be gone after 2019.

[VikeManDan]

1 minute ago, Forge said:

FWIW, OTC recently released their compensatory projections and did have you guys slotted for 3; a 6th and two 7ths. 

Yup, that's actually where I got the number from haha. Projected to have an additional 3rd until ARI cut Bradford.

[VikeManDan]

5 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I actually think Zimmer and Spielman are most likely in a no win situation...whatever approach they take to improve the offensive line in 2019 will not show immediate dividends.  Then the Vikings will be looking for a new HC and staff, a new GM and front office staff, and probably looking desperately for the "next" franchise quarterback.

You could be right. However, I think it would take another season of missing the playoffs and I understand the goal of this team isn't to just make the playoffs it's to compete for SB's. Will be fun to discuss/praise/complain about the moves they make this off-season.

[VikeManDan]

Thought this was kind of a cool summary.

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl/power_rankings

[PrplChilPill]

11 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure that they would have won the Super Bowl with Tyron Smith, Quentin Nelson, Travis Frederick, and two other studs on the line, because I don't think Cousins has it in him. 

But he's here. I doubt the team gives up at this point. So build the best team around him. Or give up and start over. Just don't ride the middle.

[VikeManDan]

11 hours ago, wcblack34 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure that they would have won the Super Bowl with Tyron Smith, Quentin Nelson, Travis Frederick, and two other studs on the line, because I don't think Cousins has it in him. 

Like any QB he does better when he has a pocket to throw in. The great ones make things happen when things break down, that is one of my biggest concerns with him.

[PrplChilPill]

3 hours ago, JDBrocks said:

You said "add two starting guards". As if throwing players at it alone is the magic solution. There has been something wrong with the Vikings' line play, and not being able to develop the players that they have drafted. My fundamental disagreement is the idea that resource allocation is the root of the problem. This has been debunked time and time again. Fix the coaching, fix the scouting, the player development will follow. That's how teams are able to find productive late round players. It isn't luck, and good OL are not always built with highly drafted players.

 

Obviously other things need to change, which I have acknowledged over and over. And over. But if they don't have starting players, it won't matter if the coach is slightly better or not.

As for resource allocation, I've made it clear, over and over, that I'm taking draft capital. Not free agency. Even a few pages back. We don't agree, which is fine. But it would be great if we acknowledged what each other said, and didn't imply we didn't say things. 

The coaching needs to be better. But, mostly, the players need to be better. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

I agree. I don't want to draft an OL just to draft one at 18. Value must always be considered but if value is equal, I hope they lean OL.

And here lies the problem.  The front office seems unwilling to deviate from dogma.  Sometimes a "reach" just might be the best thing for the team in the present.

[vikingsrule]

9 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

And here lies the problem.  The front office seems unwilling to deviate from dogma.  Sometimes a "reach" just might be the best thing for the team in the present.

Reach as in taking Brian O'Neill in round one and missing out on Hughes? Because that's what you're suggesting based on the Vikings board and what they were looking for in a ZBS Olineman.

[JDBrocks]

I agree that the players need to be better. Using all of your draft capital to add players that *might* be better when A: the OL talent pool this year is pretty small and shallow, B: the team hasn't shown the ability to get the most out of the players already selected, and C: it would come at the expense of adding multiple better players at other positions, is a bad idea.

Look, If Nelson was available this year, and they had the ammo to go get him and did, I say that's a good move. I don't see a Nelson in this draft, nor have I seen anyone else suggest that there is. Is it a good idea to trade up in the first to draft a guy like Cedric Ogbuhei or Laken Tomlinson? Just saying draft an OL no matter what is a bad idea.

They traded up to draft Elflein. They drafted Bryan O'Neill. I hope there is an OL that they find valuable enough to draft at 18. If they don't, I don't think it's fair to sigh and say that the Vikings never draft 1st round OL and that's why the OL continues to under perform. 

[Cearbhall]

I don't want to defend the Vikings coaches too much, but when it comes to offensive linemen have we seen offensive lineman leaving and looking particularly good anywhere else in the league? I don't think we have since Donald Penn. Mike Remmers is probably the guy that looked next best after leaving the Vikings.

The primary problem is the team isn't properly valuing linemen and/or investing enough resources into acquiring offensive linemen.

The team needs better players.

The coaching may be an issue but given that we don't see TJ Clemmings, David Yankey, or WIllie Beavers looking good anywhere else in the league has me severely doubting any assertion that the coaching is the problem and it certainly does not look like the main problem at this point. Current coaches were not even with the team when Penn and Remmers were cut.

The coaches got about as much out of Tom Compton as I believe possible. The team needs better players and they are going to have to invest serious resources to get them. Whether picking at 18 or trading up or down the team should be targeting an offensive lineman as their first pick in the draft. And no, that isn't a suggesting to reach. That is a suggestion to know the value of and draft a lineman at a point in the draft that lines up. Value the guys correctly though so that they don't get surprised by a guy getting drafted earlier than they thought. The team has not been properly valuing offensive linemen for a long time.

[vikestyle]

1 hour ago, Virginia Viking said:

And here lies the problem.  The front office seems unwilling to deviate from dogma.  Sometimes a "reach" just might be the best thing for the team in the present.

If the player they are "reaching" doesn't have a significantly lower grade than other players available, then yes. Otherwise you end up with Laken Tomlinson.