2019 Draft Talk

[NoDakViking]

3 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

I don't see why MN would need too. I'd trust finding a LB in round 2 or 3. It's not a premier position anymore and you probably just end up playing Gedeon or Kearse more.

I wonder if they'll finally have Kearse move to LB or keep him as a big nickel package safety.

[PrplChilPill]

9 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

The alternative is reaching on a player which isn't always a bad thing if you can fill a position of need with someone who's valued highly on your board. Is it worth taking an OL a round or half a round early? Maybe. O'Neill seems to be working out and if he develops into a long term starter, would anyone care if he was taken instead of Mike Hughes in round one? Probably not.

It's odd that other teams seem to be taking OL in round 1 and 2, and they end up starting, so there must be valuable players there.....as for "reach".....if they can get a starting OG in round 1, or a guy who might someday start at DB, I want the certain starter. And, O'Neill is the first OL taken in round 1 or 2, which is all I've been asking for, in years. And, miraculously, he turns out to be good compared to trying to take a bunch of guys in round 4, 5, 6 that never seem to work out for this team. I still recall how much everyone here loved Yankey......

continuing to pass on OL in rounds 1 and 2 is how you end up with this OL. All I'm asking for is an actual draft investment in the OL, as in round 1 or 2. Until they have an OL.

[vikingsrule]

5 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

It's odd that other teams seem to be taking OL in round 1 and 2, and they end up starting, so there must be valuable players there.....as for "reach".....if they can get a starting OG in round 1, or a guy who might someday start at DB, I want the certain starter. And, O'Neill is the first OL taken in round 1 or 2, which is all I've been asking for, in years. And, miraculously, he turns out to be good compared to trying to take a bunch of guys in round 4, 5, 6 that never seem to work out for this team. I still recall how much everyone here loved Yankey......

continuing to pass on OL in rounds 1 and 2 is how you end up with this OL. All I'm asking for is an actual draft investment in the OL, as in round 1 or 2. Until they have an OL.

I'd certainly consider double dipping at OG this year in round one and two depending upon how the LB and DT situation works out.

I'm almost fine with letting Gedeon start and finding a part time player in round 3 or 4 to compete with whatever cheap FA alternative is brought in or Wilson.

i think if Richardson leaves, you have to take a DT early. No one else can fill in adequately, I don't think J. Johnson fits as a starter.

[Cearbhall]

36 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

Which is what we've read here for years, and why the OL is not even close to good. Because somehow, there has only been OL value in round 1 or 2 one time in the last five years......

Come on. You have to know that isn't true. There have been OL of value in round 1 or 2 plenty in the last five years. The Vikings, led by Rick Spielman, just hasn't gotten it right. Often times they are prioritizing other positions higher and when they do go after OL they often screw it up. This isn't because there hasn't been OL value, it is because they are terrible at that aspect of their job.

Hindsight is easier, but Spielman and company are paid plenty to figure these things out before it is hindsight. Back in 2014 the right move in the draft would have been to draft Aaron Donald. However, if they decided to go offensive line the next offensive linemen off the board was all pro tackle Taylor Lewan to the Titans and then all pro guard Zack Martin to the Cowboys.

We all remember Will Hernandez being available in this year's draft when the team was on the clock. For many of us, this is not hindsight as we were saying at the time that we would have drafted Hernandez. The value is there. The problem is the Vikings brass is terrible at identifying the value. This is what I had to say was back on May 1:

If you want my opinion, Hernandez is the guy that I would have picked. Depending on your evaluations you might like one of the others better. The difference between the lesser of Easton and Remmers (or Compton if you think Hill shouldn't start at RT as I do) is far greater than the difference between Trae Waynes and Hughes. In fact, there is a good chance that Hughes will not pass Waynes on the depth chart. Ergo, Hughes wasn't an upgrade at all.

You need to get into nickel packages to find where Hughes might be an upgrade. These are used increasingly but starting guards still take 100% of the snaps. Nickel CBs still only take 60% - 70% of the snaps on defense. It seems likely that Newman and Alexander will get the lion's share of those nickel snaps. As a point of reference, look at how much Waynes played in his first year. Waynes was drafted even higher into a team with a weaker CB group and got 18% of the snaps his rookie year. The team shouldn't be expecting Hughes to take more than 18% of the snaps. And in those 18% the relative upgrade between him and the alternative might not even be a positive number. If it is, it is likely modest.

I would expect Hernandez to take as close to 100% of the snaps as his health would allow and the relative difference between him and the alternative to be significantly positive towards Hernandez.

Now, many don't like the scheme fit between Hernandez and the Vikings. So like I said, look into the alternatives and see what you think. Personally, I think Hernandez would fit just fine. The Vikings, like all teams, will run a hybrid. Almost no team is exclusively zone blocking or man blocking.

 

[Cearbhall]

23 hours ago, PrplChilPill said:

It's odd that other teams seem to be taking OL in round 1 and 2, and they end up starting, so there must be valuable players there.....as for "reach".....if they can get a starting OG in round 1, or a guy who might someday start at DB, I want the certain starter. And, O'Neill is the first OL taken in round 1 or 2, which is all I've been asking for, in years. And, miraculously, he turns out to be good compared to trying to take a bunch of guys in round 4, 5, 6 that never seem to work out for this team. I still recall how much everyone here loved Yankey......

continuing to pass on OL in rounds 1 and 2 is how you end up with this OL. All I'm asking for is an actual draft investment in the OL, as in round 1 or 2. Until they have an OL.

Pardon my ignorance. I hadn't read this before my previous reply. I see my sarcasm meter was off a bit when I read your post. It is out of whack based on things I have read other places on people actually defending the Vikings lack of results in obtaining offensive linemen. Based on this post, I assume you can understand my bewilderment with people trying to defend the Vikings inability to build a good offensive line for most of the last two decades.  RIP 77 -- the team still hasn't recovered.

[swede700]

Who would you have given up over the past 5 years in place of drafting an OL?

2018: Mike Hughes

2017:  Dalvin Cook

2016: Laquon Treadwell, Mackensie Alexander

2015: Trae Waynes, Eric Kendricks

2014: Anthony Barr, Teddy Bridgewater

 

My guess is that the obvious answer would be Treadwell or Alexander...But, when Treadwell was available, the only OL of note available were Joshua Garnett and Germain Ifedi, who have both been middling to bust.  Every other good OL was taken in the first 18 picks before them (notably Stanley, Conklin, Decker and Kelly).  The only OL in the last five years that was available at the time the Vikings pick that I would have taken over the player they picked was Cody Whitehair over Mackensie Alexander.  That's it.  While I agree with what you wanted PCP, the reality just doesn't match up with the want.  And you just have to resign yourself to that fact instead of trying to manufacture a belief that they could have done something different than what they did and it would have worked out better.

[Cearbhall]

2 hours ago, swede700 said:

Who would you have given up over the past 5 years in place of drafting an OL?

2018: Mike Hughes

2017:  Dalvin Cook

2016: Laquon Treadwell, Mackensie Alexander

2015: Trae Waynes, Eric Kendricks

2014: Anthony Barr, Teddy Bridgewater

I already mentioned the OL in 2014 -- Lewan and Martin.

And I mentioned that I wanted Hernandez over Hughes.

I also would give up Cook, Treadwell, and Alexander to build the offensive line. Not that I don't think Cook and Alexander are valuable pieces but I do believe that offensive line needs to be prioritized over RB.

You shouldn't pigeonhole yourself into a need to pick only from guys taken in those same drafts after the spot where the player that you would not have drafted was selected. It is that kind of small thinking that prevents the organization from having a top half of the league offensive line. Those resources can be invested in trades for veteran offensive linemen, trades for future picks used to acquire offensive linemen,  trades to get high in the draft to go for a guy like Quentin Nelson when they are around -- whatever it takes. No option should be closed off.

But yeah, I would have been happy to give up some or all of Hughes, Cook, Treadwell, Alexander, or Barr as resources to get guys like Will Hernandez, Tayler Lewan, Quentin Nelson, Zack Martin, and other good offensive linemen. Heck, I hated the Trae Waynes pick at the time it was made so while I love Waynes now without the benefit of hindsight I would have been very happy to invest that high pick towards building the offensive line too. Come to think of it, I would rather be shopping free agency for LBers than offensive line so I could also give up Eric Kendricks as part of the ammunition to build a top offensive line.

 

[VikeManDan]

I keep going back to La'el Collins, none of our 6th or 7th rounders are on the team right now from the 2015 draft. He was certainly worth the risk given the circumstances.

[VikeManDan]

Reiff-Whitehair-Elflein-Collins-O'Neill

Sign/draft La'El Collins in 2015.

Take Whitehair instead of Alexander in 2016.

The line above was a possibility. Hopefully, we can hit on some OL evaluations in the draft this year.

[Guest]

We keep observing on this board, that the good offensive linemen in the first round are gone by the time we pick.  Has the front office ever mentioned that they wanted to move up in the round in order to get an offensive lineman that they targeted?  I don't remember ever hearing that.  This is a problem, I think, with the Vikings front office...they keep hoping to pick up someone who is falling in the draft...it's not just the OL, it's every position.  Sure, they jumped back into the first round to draft a falling Bridgewater, but they waited until he was available at pick 32.  You can't do that with offensive linemen.  I guess I would like Rick to be a little less risk averse when it comes to the O Line and be aggressive when trying to draft one in the first round.

Let's remember, before Kalil was a bust he looked like a stud in his rookie season.  I think he tried to get too big too fast and he suffered knee, hip and back injuries.  O'Brien is looking like a good find in round two, but he still needs to develop.  There were so many really good interior linemen in last years draft in the first round that you and I knew would all be gone by the time the Vikings picked if they had stood pat.  I just don't think it even crossed the front offices mind to trade up to get one of them.

[SemperFeist]

It takes two, or more, to make a trade. 

Are you willing to give up your 1st, 2nd, and a future 1st to make a trade up? 

[SemperFeist]

 

[vikingsrule]

9 hours ago, swede700 said:

Who would you have given up over the past 5 years in place of drafting an OL?

2018: Mike Hughes

2017:  Dalvin Cook

2016: Laquon Treadwell, Mackensie Alexander

2015: Trae Waynes, Eric Kendricks

2014: Anthony Barr, Teddy Bridgewater

 

My guess is that the obvious answer would be Treadwell or Alexander...But, when Treadwell was available, the only OL of note available were Joshua Garnett and Germain Ifedi, who have both been middling to bust.  Every other good OL was taken in the first 18 picks before them (notably Stanley, Conklin, Decker and Kelly).  The only OL in the last five years that was available at the time the Vikings pick that I would have taken over the player they picked was Cody Whitehair over Mackensie Alexander.  That's it.  While I agree with what you wanted PCP, the reality just doesn't match up with the want.  And you just have to resign yourself to that fact instead of trying to manufacture a belief that they could have done something different than what they did and it would have worked out better.

Looking back at our recent drafts, I really did not like the Anthony Barr and Dalvin Cook picks as they happened. 

In 2014, I would have preferred Zack Martin over Barr. Though Martin might have ended up a Left Tackle in that situation given Kalil's struggles. Who knows how things would have worked out for Martin at LT.

I do recall liking Taylor Moton so he very well could have been my pick at that spot instead of Cook. 

I thought the Waynes and Treadwell picks made sense. Not going to argue those picks in regards to available OL. Both were major needs.

Kendricks and Alexander have also been good picks. I can see an argument for Whitehair over Alexander but it's close, especially as they were evaluated on draft day.

[gopherwrestler]

17 hours ago, PrplChilPill said:

Which is what we've read here for years, and why the OL is not even close to good. Because somehow, there has only been OL value in round 1 or 2 one time in the last five years......

Yes and when you start reaching to grab these players, and they are forced to start year one and they can’t hold their own, they will be the first ones booed out of town. 

 

I have no problem drafting a T with a 2nd round grade at the back end of the 1st. But we haven’t even got close to that. 

Im still not drafting a guard in the first round unless they are Quenton Nelson worthy. 

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

It takes two, or more, to make a trade. 

Are you willing to give up your 1st, 2nd, and a future 1st to make a trade up? 

Yes, if that player has a better than average chance to be a major presence on the offensive line for years, solidifying not only his own position, but making the players either side of him better.  Let's face it, this team is built to win in all areas, except that  it has one really major weakness...offensive line.  I think the window for winning it all is two years, then major producers will be leaving via free agency, retirement, or cap cuts.  I would definitely trade up in the draft for such a lineman.