Training Camp Thread

[AnAngryAmerican]

20 hours ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

IMO Elway may be on his way out if this team wins less than 9 games this year. The post-Manning sample size is enough to see that his approach hasn't worked, and a new vision is necessary. 

There's no way Joe Ellis is going to fire John Elway. No way.

Ellis is an incompetent hack who a large portion of the fanbase does not like. He made a huge PR mess of the whole Beth Bowlen fiasco, coming off as petty and power-hungry. If he fired Elway, all the onus would be on him, and the last time the onus was on him to make football decisions we ended up with Josh McDaniels. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

19 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Still can't believe that given The Shananhan's connection with Elway. It was too easy and Elways overthought it. Missed out on what's looking like a hell of a coach. 

And this was the job that Kyle wanted too! Even more, from a PR perspective, the team would be in much better shape today even if we had a 5-11 season last year (which we wouldn't have because Kyle is actually a good coach). Read the comments on Facebook, MHR or even the team's own forum and you see almost as little support for Vance as there was for Mac going into year two. 

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

1 minute ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

And this was the job that Kyle wanted too! Even more, from a PR perspective, the team would be in much better shape today even if we had a 5-11 season last year (which we wouldn't have because is actually a good coach). Read the comments on Facebook, MHR or even the team's own forum and you see almost as little support for Vance as there was for Mac going into year two. 

At least Mac had initial success to fallback on. Vance has done little to garner any support from fans, media, etc that he's capable of doing the job. The funny thing to me is that everyone talked about him being a great players coach, but the product on the field shows he does little to nothing to inspire these men to fight for him. Seems like kind of a big deal. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

2 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

I hate to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Keenum regresses. I wouldn't have signed him in the first place. I would rather have gone into this season with Osweiler and Kelly as the QB's (getting Darnold would have been nice as well, but it didn't work out).

I would have kept Oz and Kelly and drafted Josh Rosen at No. 5. I'm big a Bradley Chubb fan and I loved that pick. But even if he ends up an All Pro, a franchise QB is the most valuable thing a team can have and it's not close, if Rosen ends up that, taking Chubb cannot be viewed as anything other than a missed opportunity. 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

It's an interesting debate.

One, if you get Keenum, who has a proven track record (albeit only one season) of success as a game-manager type QB, then, with a supporting cast that includes a solid defense, some talent outside and a commitment to the running game, there is no excuses for failure. If we have another 6 or fewer win season, Vance can be promptly shown the door with Elway saying, "I gave him enough pieces, let him hire his own coaching staff, and he couldn't even turn in a .500 season." 

Two, if you draft a rookie, you almost give Vance a mulligan for this year. Most rookies, even polished ones like Rosen who have experience in a pro set, have ups and downs their rookie year. Remember even the great Peyton Manning threw 28 interceptions his rookie year after having a phenomenal career at Tennessee. Then Vance would have an "excuse" that he couldn't be expected to turn in a playoff season with a rookie QB who needed the year to adjust to the NFL. 

The play would have been sign Keenum, draft Rosen. Keenum starts the season and plays unless he struggles or team is out of contention. That way you're not trying to find a QB again next year for a new HC. You have a solid guy a coach can get behind.

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

The play would have been sign Keenum, draft Rosen. Keenum starts the season and plays unless he struggles or team is out of contention. That way you're not trying to find a QB again next year for a new HC. You have a solid guy a coach can get behind.

No way do you sign him for 2 years like we did. The play would have been to sign, say, McCown for 1/10M. Use the remaining 12M as rollover or on young, long term pieces.

[jolly red giant]

3 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

You can say that again. 

It was interesting a year and a half ago when we were in the coaching search. It seemed everyone wanted either Kyle or Dave Toub, with the vast majority wanting Kyle, but no one wanted Vance. But the CU connection between him and a Matt Russell meant an awful lot. Apparently. SMH.

I don't think we had a shot at Shanahan because I think Shanahan wanted too much control over things. I can't see the Broncos going back to that situation after what happened with McDaniels and I certainly can't see Elway giving over control of anything he doesn't have to.

[jolly red giant]

3 hours ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I would have kept Oz and Kelly and drafted Josh Rosen at No. 5. I'm big a Bradley Chubb fan and I loved that pick. But even if he ends up an All Pro, a franchise QB is the most valuable thing a team can have and it's not close, if Rosen ends up that, taking Chubb cannot be viewed as anything other than a missed opportunity. 

well this was Rosen in the first game - and he was very hit and miss

 

[germ-x]

I have no issue passing on Rosen.  It’s why I couldn’t run an organization, but he is such a tool I would’ve hated having him as my franchises QB, haha. 

[Joe_is_the_best]

If we're going to compare this team to last years team, I don't see how they would win only 4 games. It was a perfect storm of incompetence last year and we won 5 games. Our defense hasn't given up a higher QB rating since at least 2011. Our offense was 29th in points per drive (stats are from FootballOutsiders), defense was 14th (previous 3 years we were 3rd, 1st, and 12th) and our average field position was last. We were 29th in pass protection.

Our possible improvements are substantial. Siemian was the 33rd ranked QB (out of 35) that threw at least 200 passes. Lynch was the 23rd ranked QB (out of 26) who threw less. Keenum was ranked 4th (31st the year before). Keenum isn't a top 5 QB, obviously, but he's substantially better than what we had. I've followed Keenum in his Texan days. He had the ability, there is no doubt. His arm isn't electric, but he can make every throw. He was held back, mainly by 2 things. An offensive scheme that didn't allow for audibles and his utter inability to handle blitzes or pressure of any kind. To be honest I have no idea about what happened in STL but Jeff Fisher.

His success in Minny I will attribute to his coolness under pressure (surprise!), an offensive scheme with flexibility, a pressure relieving short passing game, and talented skill players. Add a stifling defense and you've got the recipe. The Minny offensive line wasn't Dallas or anything. Their RBs only had a YPC of 3.9. They were ranked 19th in run blocking. Our offensive line was actually good at run blocking. Our adjusted line yards was 9th, our stuffed percentage was 18% (good for 7th). But why such a low YPC? We were 18th in 2nd level yards and 26th (!) in open field yards. Pass blocking is where Minny was ranked 6th, but that's not the whole story. Keenum was pressured on 39% of his plays (3rd highest) and yet was only 1 of 3 players with a positive DVOA under pressure (the other 2 were Tom Brady and Jimmy G). Siemian? He was pressured on only 28% of plays. As we know, he caves under pressure. In fact Siemian was also awful with no pressure (ranked 30th).

Is it so crazy to think we can't, to a partial degree, use the same recipe? OK we don't have the same quality of ingredients, but we can bake a decent cake. We should have a decent scheme, we have good skill players (many unproven but we have some talent), our offensive line will be better, and our QB will be much better.

Of course we will see things go towards the mean. I'm not expecting Keenum to be a great QB, but I do expect stability and competence, which he will give us. I can't say I was happy when he was signed. I also wanted us to draft Rosen. I'm not gonna lie, I got deja vu watching those first 2 series, and not in a good way. However, I'm not going to worry yet. Yet. Don't forget though, that going towards the mean indicates our defense will be better.  I think predicting 4 wins is a stretch. We'll win at least 7. I know, way to go out on a limb. 

[big_palooka]

17 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

No way do you sign him for 2 years like we did. The play would have been to sign, say, McCown for 1/10M. Use the remaining 12M as rollover or on young, long term pieces.

I like this. When it was clear they were not going to land Kirk, the focus should have shifted towards the draft and vet stopgap

[big_palooka]

14 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said:

If we're going to compare this team to last years team, I don't see how they would win only 4 games. It was a perfect storm of incompetence last year and we won 5 games. Our defense hasn't given up a higher QB rating since at least 2011. Our offense was 29th in points per drive (stats are from FootballOutsiders), defense was 14th (previous 3 years we were 3rd, 1st, and 12th) and our average field position was last. We were 29th in pass protection.

You can't compare one team to the next. Each season is different. Fact here is, that "incompetence" comes from the HC and the same guy is in charge. With a slow start, the team could give up on Vance. Happens every year. And take away Talib from that defense, it's got less teeth in secondary. His attitude/skill meant a lot of that defense.

14 hours ago, Joe_is_the_best said:

He was held back, mainly by 2 things. An offensive scheme that didn't allow for audibles and his utter inability to handle blitzes or pressure of any kind. To be honest I have no idea about what happened in STL but Jeff Fisher.

And you're putting him behind a suspect Oline. And aside from last season in the perfect setting, Keenum has never been anything more than a backup Why you would expect stability form him is questionable. He was in the right place at the right time in Minnesota, dome team talent at 2 WR spots, good backfield and TE. 

Problem with Denver is Elway thinks this team is a QB away from rebounding and they are not. He'll regret not drafting a QB at 5 when he had the chance. 

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

You can't compare one team to the next. Each season is different. Fact here is, that "incompetence" comes from the HC and the same guy is in charge. With a slow start, the team could give up on Vance. Happens every year. And take away Talib from that defense, it's got less teeth in secondary. His attitude/skill meant a lot of that defense.

Ya, the Talib loss is going to be huge. The secondary, hell the team in general, doesn't have any more 'dogs' like it did when we got the Super Bowl. That defense had a great mix of old fashioned leadership (Ware), laid back popularity (Von) and straight up dogs (Ward, Talib). This defense isn't bad, but its nowhere near elite. I would say 12 or so league wide. Really, who on defense is unquestionably in the top 25% or so of their position? Von and CH3. Arguably Roby, but he needs to take a step this offseason as the CB2. Losing one more guy in Talib that was unquestionably top 25%, probably top 10%, at his position is freaking huge. I don't think I would go to bat for anyone else being top 25%. Teams are a sum of their parts, but talent matters too and top-end talent is huge. This team lacks that defensively, and Elway deserves blame for not finding many guys that have fit into that upper-starter tier in the draft.

[germ-x]

I don’t know why people are looking at the Broncos QB position as if there is no chance at a future.

As a couple of posts have mentioned they liked the idea of bringing in a veteran (Keenum/McCown) and drafting Rosen behind them.

It’s not like this still can’t be done, Keenum is signed for 2 years.  Obviously the QB can’t be Rosen and while the 2019 class lacks QBs at the top of the draft it looks to be loaded from the mid 1st round to the 3rd round.  Drew Lock, Justin Herbert, Ryan Finley, Will Grier, Jarrett Stidham, Clayton Thorson, Shea Patterson, and Nate Stanley all fit in that range currently.  All of those guys (except for maybe Grier) are physically more talented than a guy like Mason Rudolph who went in the 3rd round in 2018 and is pegged as the future for the Steelers.

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

I don’t know why people are looking at the Broncos QB position as if there is no chance at a future.

As a couple of posts have mentioned they liked the idea of bringing in a veteran (Keenum/McCown) and drafting Rosen behind them.

It’s not like this still can’t be done, Keenum is signed for 2 years.  Obviously the QB can’t be Rosen and while the 2019 class lacks QBs at the top of the draft it looks to be loaded from the mid 1st round to the 3rd round.  Drew Lock, Justin Herbert, Ryan Finley, Will Grier, Jarrett Stidham, Clayton Thorson, Shea Patterson, and Nate Stanley all fit in that range currently.  All of those guys (except for maybe Grier) are physically more talented than a guy like Mason Rudolph who went in the 3rd round in 2018 and is pegged as the future for the Steelers.

Because why put it off? Especially when we finally have a top draft pick. Your argument can be made for putting off drafting any position. Every year has prospects, not every year do we end up in the top 5.