Mind Character Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Who’s forgetting roster composition? We all know the roster had limitations, but do roster limitations excuse poor use of said personnel and bad coaching decisions? They aren’t mutually exclusive. Of course they are not mutually exclusive You're right... And there were a lot of poor decisions... Right there again... ---------- My point is and has always been that poor decisions are ubiquitous in football... The good coaches have poor decisions but also have good ones and sound developmental coaching, leadership, mentorship alongside the poor decisions... as well as keeping the poor decisions minimized... ...AND it is the context of talent and experience and coaching around them that leads to winning and positive outcomes ------ Just for me it's always been fascinating to see how starting a rookie non-top talent QB (Kessler & Kizer) on a poor talent or good young inexperienced rookie talent composed roster seems to surprise people (not you of course) when it results in historic losing... the trend in football is clear.. There are a few guaranteed ways to have historic losing... 1.) Start a rookie QB that wasn't a top talent in the draft (even when you do 2.) Have the most inexperienced starters (13-16 out of 22 starters... rookie and 2nd year players) out of anyone in the league 3.) Have the youngest most inexperienced 2 deep in the league (rookie's and 2nd years) 4.) Cut veteran leadership and impact to save salary cap space ------ We did all those things.. it was the plan.. that plan leads to historic losing independent of any coach... Sashi was brilliant, diligent, and creative at making sure that plan worked out as it should... he helped set up this team for future, sustainable winning.. the plan was always to lose big... ------- But the key surprising thing to me is how the fans couldn't see what was to come in 2017... how did they not know that we were going to be in the 0 to 3 wins range the following year?? The roster was known by every metric to be terrible and result in historic losing in 2016... no one argued that.... .... rookie QB Kessler...Erving, Greco, Pasztor.... Rookie Ricardo, rookie Corey, injured/washed Hawk, Barnidge, rookie devlve 1st year starter TP... ... 43 players playing 34... rookie Nassib.. rookie Ogbah... Cam Johnson... Jamar Taylor.. Tramon Williams... no impact at pass rusher... pass defender ... And here's the kicker... The only difference between the 2016 team and the 2017 team literally was another rookie, consensus not top 3 QB that wasn't ready to start, tons of Rookies at key positions (some at positions they never played before), Subtracting Terrelle Pryor, Joe Haden, Demario Davis.... Adding Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Having a rotating Practice Squad/ Off the street WR Corps throughout the year, Kevin Zeitler, and JC Tretter ...that's it Anyone paying attention... imo... should have know that we were in store for historic losing team with roster compositon issues everywhere... and subtracting/adding the players above... to a historic losing team was certain to produce those outcomes... independent of coaching... Then you add the poor coaching and personnel decisions.. and there you have it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, buno67 said: HBO wasn’t making it venomous, it was other media outlets. To me it’s typcial coaches meeting stuff. I like it because it shows the coaches aren’t just yes men to Hue and if they think something could be better they will voice it. Which is healthy for a coaching staff. I don’t think anyone who’s familiar with either Williams or Haley was ever worried about them being yes men for Hue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 oh crap.. im doing it.. that's it.. no more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I don’t think anyone who’s familiar with either Williams or Haley was ever worried about them being yes men for Hue. And I'm so glad that they aren't that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Of course they are not mutually exclusive You're right... And there were a lot of poor decisions... Right there again... ---------- My point is and has always been that poor decisions are ubiquitous in football... The good coaches have poor decisions but also have good ones and sound developmental coaching, leadership, mentorship alongside the poor decisions... as well as keeping the poor decisions minimized... ...AND it is the context of talent and experience and coaching around them that leads to winning and positive outcomes ------ Just for me it's always been fascinating to see how starting a rookie non-top talent QB (Kessler & Kizer) on a poor talent or good young inexperienced rookie talent composed roster seems to surprise people (not you of course) when it results in historic losing... the trend in football is clear.. There are a few guaranteed ways to have historic losing... 1.) Start a rookie QB that wasn't a top talent in the draft (even when you do 2.) Have the most inexperienced starters (13-16 out of 22 starters... rookie and 2nd year players) out of anyone in the league 3.) Have the youngest most inexperienced 2 deep in the league (rookie's and 2nd years) 4.) Cut veteran leadership and impact to save salary cap space ------ We did all those things.. it was the plan.. that plan leads to historic losing independent of any coach... Sashi was brilliant, diligent, and creative at making sure that plan worked out as it should... he helped set up this team for future, sustainable winning.. the plan was always to lose big... Agreed, the plan was to lose until they were able to land their guy at QB at the top of the draft. Quote ------- But the key surprising thing to me is how the fans couldn't see what was to come in 2017... how did they not know that we were going to be in the 0 to 3 wins range the following year?? The roster was known by every metric to be terrible and result in historic losing in 2016... no one argued that.... .... rookie QB Kessler...Erving, Greco, Pasztor.... Rookie Ricardo, rookie Corey, injured/washed Hawk, Barnidge, rookie devlve 1st year starter TP... ... 43 players playing 34... rookie Nassib.. rookie Ogbah... Cam Johnson... Jamar Taylor.. Tramon Williams... no impact at pass rusher... pass defender ... And here's the kicker... The only difference between the 2016 team and the 2017 team literally was another rookie, consensus not top 3 QB that wasn't ready to start, tons of Rookies at key positions (some at positions they never played before), Subtracting Terrelle Pryor, Joe Haden, Demario Davis.... Adding Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Having a rotating Practice Squad/ Off the street WR Corps throughout the year, Kevin Zeitler, and JC Tretter ...that's it Ok, a few things. We added Jamie Collins, the rookies were more talented than the guys they replaced (all 3 first rounders and Ogunjobi), Kevin Zeitler and Tretter are head and shoulders better than the guys they replaced. Demario Davis’s replacement made the Pro Bowl. McCourtey played decent for most of the year imo. The scheme was a tragedy tho. The WR corp is indefensible, they were awful. Quote Anyone paying attention... imo... should have know that we were in store for historic losing team with roster compositon issues everywhere... and subtracting/adding the players above... to a historic losing team was certain to produce those outcomes... independent of coaching... Then you add the poor coaching and personnel decisions.. and there you have it... I’d argue this team is no worse than other teams we’ve fielded with crappy QB’s who managed to scrape together some wins. Our front 7 was arguably the best since our return, Ol was full of vets and we had 2 competent vet running backs. There was a relatively basic formula for maximizing talent and minimizing deficiencies. Hue did the exact opposite of that. That’s my issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioG Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 I am glad I am not on the Cleveland Browns. I dont think I wouldve had the self control to not pop off on Gregg Williams after he berated the players for effort. Bruh you run a horrible scheme that forces players on the field and second you think bend but dont break would work in Cleveland. This team knows only how to break. There were plenty of games last year where Hue had the offense ready and we couldve gotten 3 wins but Gregs crappy defense shat the bed. And Todd Haley just seems like an insufferable ahole. "Who names their kid Carl". Mfer yo name is Todd. Has anyone heard anything about Devalve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Just now, ohiogenius said: "Who names their kid Carl". Mfer yo name is Todd. Fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 10 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Ok, a few things. We added Jamie Collins, the rookies were more talented than the guys they replaced (all 3 first rounders and Ogunjobi), Jamie Collins was on the team the prior year though in 2016 and played more... so it's fair to say his impact in 2017 when he played less... would be less... 11 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Kevin Zeitler and Tretter are head and shoulders better than the guys they replaced. Agreed... and yes... we've talked about this point as well before... An good to elite OL is not the biggest decider in winning as a rookie QB or other interrelated factors as we had better OL position players (Mack, Schwartz... etc) and had near historic to historic losing at the same time... 13 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Demario Davis’s replacement made the Pro Bowl. We've discussed this as well.. impact comes in various ways... losing Demario and Joe Haden who were the vocal leaders of the team ... in the weight room... in the meeting rooms... breakdown huddles... organizing activities... it was a blow to the team... it did allow others to come in and start and accumulate big numbers... you're right of course... 14 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: McCourtey played decent for most of the year imo. The scheme was a tragedy tho. You're right again... in that the scheme was a head scratcher.. and bad but imo.. McCourty's play fell off drastically after 6 games... he'll likely not even make the 53 in New England... he played poor with the Titans before the Gregg Williams questions... to his credit he did play well in the beginning of the season... The scheme was used to cover up our deficiencies and inability to cover with speed.... we had 4 CBs on the 53 a lot... and mike jordan types were are go to guys... 17 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: the rookies were more talented than the guys they replaced (all 3 first rounders and Ogunjobi), I completely agree.. Talented of course... thrilled to have them... but they were rookies nonetheless.. that means mental mistakes... up and down play... Peppers played a position he never played... Njoku was raw as anything and one of the youngest players in the league... Myles played injured most of the year... Ogunjobi talented but completely raw... Point is even the most talented rookies when surrounded by youth and inexperience have a hard time winning... they don't know how to be pros... they haven't seen a lot... with the talent around them... imo those rookie talents weren't going to move the arrow toward winning.. not in the first year at least.. 22 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: I’d argue this team is no worse than other teams we’ve fielded with crappy QB’s The key difference bro is the never before have we had 16 out of 22 starters being in their 1st or 2nd year... As a predictor of wins and losses... Youth... Inexperience of the roster overall, the starters, and especially the QB are the most statistically reliable predictors of historic losing... So, yeah.. can we look at the team and say.... man.. these young guys are talented.. yeah... but win? not imo... 25 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Our front 7 was arguably the best since our return, Ol was full of vets and we had 2 competent vet running backs. running game was a failure... absolutely true... 26 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: There was a relatively basic formula for maximizing talent and minimizing deficiencies. Hue did the exact opposite of that. That’s my issue. And this is the core of the discussion and disagreements.. So, and we'll see where things take us this year... Watching and scouting the games.. Hue made many poor decisions... but I think the good called games and his minimization of all kinds of things went unnoticed because of the hyperscrutiny of historic losing... What it means to coach (not just Hue) the youngest.. inexperienced team... with an inexperienced rookie... when the team cuts who the team thinks are its best leaders and players... when the team thinks its tanking.. it's a completely different type of coaching challenge than that of simply trying to win... ...but I have clear memories of so so many games... where rookies were rookies or the trash WR street corps was trash or we loss b/c of a missed field goal or redzone mistake in the 4th Quarter, the amount of 3 games lost by 3 points... that were independent of a coach ... I agree that the Head Coach has to be held accountable for what's on the field ... but to me the difference between 1-31 and 4-28 is exactly nothing... It's only b/c of my watching other teams and their coaching decision controversies on a weekly basis that I realized Hue's no different than all these other coaches.. and how their media writes about them... but those other coaches get reprieves from winning a game here or there.. -------- Thankfully... and mercifully... soon we won't have to talk about this anymore as Hue will be fired and the majority will get what they wanted... or we'll have success and things will look a little different.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 33 minutes ago, ohiogenius said: I am glad I am not on the Cleveland Browns. I dont think I wouldve had the self control to not pop off on Gregg Williams after he berated the players for effort. Bruh you run a horrible scheme that forces players on the field and second you think bend but dont break would work in Cleveland. This team knows only how to break. There were plenty of games last year where Hue had the offense ready and we couldve gotten 3 wins but Gregs crappy defense shat the bed. And Todd Haley just seems like an insufferable ahole. "Who names their kid Carl". Mfer yo name is Todd. Has anyone heard anything about Devalve Scheme that forces players on the field???huh last year he ran a bend don’t break defense. Did you want him to run an aggressive style defense with that crap secondary. The talent he had in the secondary really handicuffed what he could do. Add in injuries to Garrett and Collins. He didn’t have the greatest talent. You can’t put all that blame on the defense. A lot of times the defense couldn’t hold onto leads becuase the offense couldn’t stay on the field to allow the defense to rest for a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: We've discussed this as well.. impact comes in various ways... losing Demario and Joe Haden who were the vocal leaders of the team ... in the weight room... in the meeting rooms... breakdown huddles... organizing activities... it was a blow to the team... it did allow others to come in and start and accumulate big numbers... you're right of course... Losing the leader of the breakdown huddles and activities? Not that! There was still a vet in every position group, save QB. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: You're right again... in that the scheme was a head scratcher.. and bad Which is what I evaluate the coaches on, the scheme, not necessarily the execution of it. I realize young/talent deprived teams won’t execute things at the same level as talented/experienced groups, but it doesn’t excuse obvious buffoonery just because the talent is young. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: The scheme was used to cover up our deficiencies and inability to cover with speed.... we had 4 CBs on the 53 a lot... and mike jordan types were are go to guys... Lol we’re still running this “angel” nonsense with a 4.3 CB a pair of 4.4 CB’s and a pair of 4.4 safeties now. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: I completely agree.. Talented of course... thrilled to have them... but they were rookies nonetheless.. that means mental mistakes... up and down play... Peppers played a position he never played... Njoku was raw as anything and one of the youngest players in the league... Myles played injured most of the year... Ogunjobi talented but completely raw... I’ll take my chances with a slightly injured Myles as opposed to a healthy, veteran Des Bryant, Randy Starks or Paul Kruger, all of who managed to play on a defense that won 3 times as many games in 2015 as Hue has the last two years combined. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Point is even the most talented rookies when surrounded by youth and inexperience have a hard time winning... they don't know how to be pros... they haven't seen a lot... with the talent around them... imo those rookie talents weren't going to move the arrow toward winning.. not in the first year at least.. The key difference bro is the never before have we had 16 out of 22 starters being in their 1st or 2nd year... As a predictor of wins and losses... Youth... Inexperience of the roster overall, the starters, and especially the QB are the most statistically reliable predictors of historic losing... So, yeah.. can we look at the team and say.... man.. these young guys are talented.. yeah... but win? not imo... I’m not all that mad about the losses, never have been, it was part of the plan. My issue was the complete contradiction to common sense schematically. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: running game was a failure... absolutely true... Was it? http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt 6th in YPC and more rushing TD’s than the champs. Somehow we managed to do something relatively well, but managed being 27th in the league in attempts. Hue had multiple games where he called a half dozen or less runs in an entire half. That’s coaching, not talent or youth, or lack of team cheerleaders, coaching. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: And this is the core of the discussion and disagreements.. So, and we'll see where things take us this year... Watching and scouting the games.. Hue made many poor decisions... but I think the good called games and his minimization of all kinds of things went unnoticed because of the hyperscrutiny of historic losing... Recognizing a coach completely abandons the run for games, deflects blame, sandbags the front office or seems oblivious to roster strengths and weaknesses isn’t hyperscrutiny, those are legit complaints imo. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: What it means to coach (not just Hue) the youngest.. inexperienced team... with an inexperienced rookie... when the team cuts who the team thinks are its best leaders and players... when the team thinks its tanking.. it's a completely different type of coaching challenge than that of simply trying to win... Again, the W/L record was never my thing. It’s fun to point out how awful he is, but I don’t really care tbh. If he failed because he ran a conservative offense, focusing on the run, safe passes, familiar schemes to Kizer, playing with traditional spacing in the defensive backfield, playing Peppers at his natural position, etc I would be much more confident moving forward. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: ...but I have clear memories of so so many games... where rookies were rookies or the trash WR street corps was trash or we loss b/c of a missed field goal or redzone mistake in the 4th Quarter, the amount of 3 games lost by 3 points... that were independent of a coach ... I agree that the Head Coach has to be held accountable for what's on the field ... but to me the difference between 1-31 and 4-28 is exactly nothing... I agree, me too. Here’s the difference though, you see a rookie QB making bad reads, bad WR’s failing to beat DB’s etc. I see a coach who continually tried to pound that square peg into a round hole. Here’s a thought Hue, STOP HAVING YOUR GREEN ROOKIE QB MAKE DIFFICULT THROWS/READS TO GARBAGE RECEIVERS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: It's only b/c of my watching other teams and their coaching decision controversies on a weekly basis that I realized Hue's no different than all these other coaches.. and how their media writes about them... but those other coaches get reprieves from winning a game here or there.. Other teams coaches slip in sht and fall in gold enough to win a game or two too. 13 minutes ago, Mind Character said: -------- Thankfully... and mercifully... soon we won't have to talk about this anymore as Hue will be fired and the majority will get what they wanted... or we'll have success and things will look a little different.. Let’s hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NudeTayne Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 49 minutes ago, ohiogenius said: "Who names their kid Carl". Mfer yo name is Todd. Has anyone heard anything about Devalve Nude is the most fitting baby name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 16 minutes ago, NudeTayne said: Nude is the most fitting baby name. Have your 1000th like my good man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mind Character Posted August 15, 2018 Author Share Posted August 15, 2018 1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Losing the leader of the breakdown huddles and activities? Not that! There was still a vet in every position group, save QB. LOL... come on man... u know what I was getting at... I'm talking about losing vocal and work-minded leadership... 4 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Lol we’re still running this “angel” nonsense with a 4.3 CB a pair of 4.4 CB’s and a pair of 4.4 safeties now. Not even close to frequent as last year.. you didn't see those 2 high or staggered looks and breath a sigh of relief in the preseason game... ------- I'll keep the rest short as I promised myself (and failed) that I wouldn't keep at these Hue convos... ...And b/c I know for a fact that we've had back and forths on these exact points numerous times... Running game failure I was putting on Hue... Poor coaching decision making happens within a particular context and pressure... My point is that the pain and hyper-awareness of mistakes in a losing environment minimize the good game plans and calls to where everything is just bad and the only thing remembered are key poor calls.... ( i.e., the idea that the vast majority of passing game plans were too advanced for Kizer etc...) We just disagree on the frequency, amount, and how critical the poor versus good coaching decisions were.... 9 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said: Other teams coaches slip in sht and fall in gold enough to win a game or two too. Not when they are the youngest team in NFL history back to back years... with 16 out of 22 starters being 1st or 2nd year players... and that's always been the gist of my point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETSGOBROWNIES Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mind Character said: LOL... come on man... u know what I was getting at... I'm talking about losing vocal and work-minded leadership... Not even close to frequent as last year.. you didn't see those 2 high or staggered looks and breath a sigh of relief in the preseason game... ------- I'll keep the rest short as I promised myself (and failed) that I wouldn't keep at these Hue convos... ...And b/c I know for a fact that we've had back and forths on these exact points numerous times... You’ve been wrong many times, I’m aware. 2 minutes ago, Mind Character said: We just disagree on the frequency, amount, and how critical the poor versus good coaching decisions were.... All which you’re wrong about btw. 2 minutes ago, Mind Character said: Not when they are the youngest team in NFL history back to back years... with 16 out of 22 starters being 1st or 2nd year players... and that's always been the gist of my point... Just out of curiousity, what was the record of the second youngest team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NudeTayne Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Mind Character said: LOL... come on man... u know what I was getting at... I'm talking about ellipses... This. 4 minutes ago, Mind Character said: We just disagree on the frequency, amount, and how critical the poor versus good usages of ellipses were.... Also this. 5 minutes ago, Mind Character said: 16 out of 22 punctuations being ellipses... and that's always been the gist of my point... I appreciate you owning your ubiquitous usage of ellipses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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