Is Cam Newton on a HOF pace?

[iknowcool]

8 minutes ago, Danger said:

Newton was actually not good the first half of 2015.

132/246 (53.7%), 1820 Yards, 14 TD: 9 INT - 81.35 Passer Rating

Horrendous completion percentage. 5 out of his first 8 games his passer rating was lower than 75. 

And okay, if you want to keep judging exclusively off stats, then do you.  You clearly feel guys like Robert Griffin and Tyrod Taylor (with his 91 QB Rating which blows away Cam's) are better QBs than Cam, and I guess these NFL teams who keep giving up on them don't know what they are doing while the Panthers (one of the more successful teams of the last 5-6 years) don't know what they are doing.

Cam Newton was quite clearly great to anyone who watched him play in the first half of that season (he was great all season).  He didn't just become an MVP out of nowhere.  He was already gaining traction.  I don't give a crap about the numbers because they clearly aren't a good 100% representation of Cam Newton.  I mean, clearly.  Unless again you think Tyrod and RG3 are superior or on the same level.  Because they have comparable numbers.  So either Cam is on their level or there is context that we need to look at.  Which do you think is more plausible? 

Tyrod Taylor 62 CMP in 2017.  Carson Wentz 60 CMP in 2017.  Thus Tyrod is more accurate than Wentz.  No context.

Edited September 6, 2018 by iknowcool

[Danger]

2 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Tyrod Taylor 62 CMP in 2017.  Carson Wentz 60 CMP in 2017.  Thus Tyrod is more accurate than Wentz.  No context.

Dude, you're talking complete hyperbole. Cam Newton LITERALLY in his ENTIRE complete 7 year career, outside half of one season, has a HUGE discrepancy from historically great pace, to below average, we're not talking about 7 or 8 completions across the duration of the entire season.

If anyone thinks that Cam is on a Hall of Fame pace, I want some of whatever they're having because it sounds great. If you think Cam is an above average QB in the NFL today who could use some more weapons to fully recognize his abilities then you're completely logical. Cam Newton isn't Elite, he's not even great. I don't think Cam is below average. His running ability, and his lack of offensive weapons around him the last couple seasons do argue in his favor, but not enough to make him even in the Tier 2 QB. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Danger

[iknowcool]

3 minutes ago, Danger said:

Dude, you're talking complete hyperbole. Cam Newton LITERALLY in his ENTIRE complete 7 year career, outside half of one season, has a HUGE discrepancy from historically great pace, to below average, we're not talking about 7 or 8 completions across the duration of the entire season.

So why focus on the Wentz/Tyrod comparison? 

Focus on the other and just answer the question.  Is it more plausible that Tyrod Taylor is on Cam Newton's level or that we (you) need to apply more context to the numbers?

Because I mean, you are the one saying Cam Newton wasn't good in the first half of the season (Panthers started 8-0 and beat the Packers and Seahawks; lord knows how they did it with a "not good" QB, Ted Ginn as #1 WR, and an average offensive line) and basing it off numbers.  Tyrod Taylor has a much higher career passer rating than Cam Newton.  So is Tyrod better than Cam?  

Or gasp, can numbers be misleading?

Edited September 6, 2018 by iknowcool

[Danger]

1 minute ago, iknowcool said:

Focus on the other and just answer the question.  Is it more plausible that Tyrod Taylor is on Cam Newton's level or that we (you) need to apply more context to the numbers?

Because I mean, you are the one saying Cam Newton wasn't good in the first half of the season (Panthers started 8-0 and beat the Packers and Seahawks; lord knows how they did it with a "not good" QB, Ted Ginn as #1 WR, and an average offensive line) and basing it off numbers.  Tyrod Taylor has a much higher career passer rating than Cam Newton.  So is Tyrod better than Cam?  

Or gasp, can numbers be misleading?

Numbers can be misleading if there's a small difference, but when it's literally night and day, you can't hide that. You're grasping at straws. I also edited my post before you responded so why don't you give the rest of that a read. 

[iknowcool]

Using the exact numbers you did:

Tyrod in 2017: 62.6%, 2799 yards, 14:4, 89 QB Rating

Cam in 2017: 59%, 3302 yards, 22:16, 80 QB Rating

Your logic dictates Tyrod >>>>>>> Cam.  And you don't see the problem?  Really?

[iknowcool]

1 minute ago, Danger said:

Numbers can be misleading if there's a small difference, but when it's literally night and day, you can't hide that. You're grasping at straws. I also edited my post before you responded so why don't you give the rest of that a read. 

There isn't a small difference in the numbers though.  It is actually a big difference between Cam's QB rating and Tyrod's QB Rating.  I'm not grasping at straws.  I'm using your logic.  You are saying Cam wasn't good in the first half of 2015.  It's a ridiculous statement.  He quite clearly was.

The issue is you aren't looking beyond the numbers.  You can't say the numbers are the reason why he wasn't good in the first half of the season, but then disagree that Tyrod > Cam.  Both use the same argument.  And you still haven't answered the question.

Is Tyrod better than Cam?

Edited September 6, 2018 by iknowcool

[Danger]

1 minute ago, iknowcool said:

You are saying Cam wasn't good in the first half of 2015.  It's a ridiculous statement.  He quite clearly was.

He really wasn't. 5 out of the first 8 games, he was dreadful. 

[iknowcool]

Just now, Danger said:

He really wasn't. 5 out of the first 8 games, he was dreadful. 

Is Tyrod better than Cam?

[Danger]

Just now, iknowcool said:

Is Tyrod better than Cam?

No, but that doesn't make either one of them good.

[iknowcool]

3 minutes ago, Danger said:

No, but that doesn't make either one of them good.

How isn't he better though?  Using the same exact stats you used to determine Newton was dreadful in the first half of 2015, Tyrod outpaces him.  Same thing if you did Tyrod's 2016 vs Cam Newton's 2016.  Tyrod wins.

So how is Tyrod Taylor not better than Cam Newton?  I'm not understanding your logic.

Edited September 6, 2018 by iknowcool

[Danger]

Just now, iknowcool said:

How isn't he better though?  Using the same exact stats you used to determine Newton was dreadful in the first half of 2015, Tyrod outpaces him.  Same thing if you did Tyrod's 2016 vs Cam Newton's 2016.  Tyrod wins.

So how is Tyrod Taylor not better than Cam Newton?  

It's funny to see you triggered, honestly.

[Danger]

15 minutes ago, Danger said:

If you think Cam is an above average QB in the NFL today who could use some more weapons to fully recognize his abilities then you're completely logical. Cam Newton isn't Elite, he's not even great. I don't think Cam is below average. His running ability, and his lack of offensive weapons around him the last couple seasons do argue in his favor, but not enough to make him even in the Tier 2 QB.

 

[James]

Outside of the "first half of 2015" part I don't think you guys disagree. @Danger @iknowcool

[MWil23]

I think that Cam is a very average passing QB who becomes a very good/great QB due to his unique running and dual threat skillset. He's basically got the size of a linebacker, who runs like a RB, who can beat you throwing the ball downfield. Now, I don't want him operating a west coast style of offense or throwing it more than 25 times a game, but he's certainly a Top 10 QB in the game today.

[iknowcool]

9 minutes ago, Danger said:

It's funny to see you triggered, honestly.

Haha definitely not triggered, just a bored college student with time on his hands.

I'm just trying to show you why you need to look beyond the stats (you and I both know Tyrod isn't on Cam's level).  Clearly you already have your mind made up so fair enough.  Newton was forced into making tight-window, low-percentage throws against some solid defenses in the first half of the season.  Outside of Olsen, his weapons were as bare as they have been during his career - no dependable underneath options ala a McCaffrey, and his starting receivers were Ted Ginn, Jerricho Cotchery, and... I don't even remember the 3rd one, maybe Funchess.  I barely remember.  Ginn was limited to the go-route, Cotchery was slow as molasses and could only really run the curl, and Funchess as a rookie looked like a guaranteed bust (his improvement to this point is astounding compared to how he looked coming out the gate).  He wasn't completing a lot of throws, but he throws he did complete were damned impressive.  LIS, he was getting MVP talk before his numbers started measuring up.  Maybe you don't think he was great, whatever, but he quite obviously wasn't terrible.  He was the only thing we had on offense.

Cam might not be great.  But he's better than his career numbers. His career numbers would suggest he's in the 20s as a QB and on the aforementioned level of the Tyrod's, Griffin's, Kaepernick's of the world.

Edited September 6, 2018 by iknowcool