2019 Draft Discussion

[Leader]

16 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Not arguing the value of an ILB at 12, you should know me better. I'm arguing the notion that Pettine wouldn't play him if we had him because "his scheme" likes a hybrid instead of true ILB. He'll play our best players, White would certainly be one.

Correct - which is all I ask. Consider positional needs and such - but dont turn down opportunity to put dynamic players on our roster.

[Redt]

Don't recall advocating for OLB's Fackrell and Perry, but if that's the way you need to twist it, so you can be correct, okay.

I do like the idea of blitzing one of the ILB on third down though and with both playing all three downs could cause confusion for opposing QB's, I know crazy talk, gotta have that edge.

Here is a thought

#12 D. White

#30 Risner

#44. J. Ferguson

[MacReady]

Just now, Leader said:

Correct - which is all I ask. Consider positional needs and such - but dont turn down opportunity to put dynamic players on our roster.

At the right value.  I'm accused of being the King of the Dogma when I have countlessley acknowledged that exceptions can be made.  ILB, TE, WR, IOL in the first round?  No.  I've frequently acknowledged it's acceptable late.  ILB in the top half of the draft?  Yeah, call me dogmatic.  Especially when there will be an equally promising player at a more important position. 

Assuming two quarterbacks go in the top 11 (which is a very safe assumption)
Assuming one skill position (RB, WR, TE) player goes in the top 11 (which again is a very safe assumption)

We are GUARANTEED one of:
1.
2.
3.
4.Nick Bosa
5. Quinnen Williams
6. Josh Allen
7. Ed Oliver
8. Jonah Williams
9. Rashaan Gary
10. Jawaan Taylor
11. Clelin Ferrel
12. Christian Wilkins
13. Greedy Williams
14. Byron Murphy

EACH of those 11 players is as good a prospect as White, and EACH of them are at a more important position when looking at both PACKER needs and POSITIONAL VALUE. 

So why would we ever draft White at 12? 

[MacReady]

Just now, Redt said:

Don't recall advocating for OLB's Fackrell and Perry, but if that's the way you need to twist it, so you can be correct, okay.

Well, you said I want Josh Jones in the role of a second third down ILB (which couldn't be further from the truth), so I made a lie about what you wanted.  Since you missed that. 
 

Quote

 

Here is a thought

#12 D. White

#30 Risner

#44. J. Ferguson

 

Here's a better thought:

#12 Clellin Ferrell
#30 Nasir Adderly
#44 whomever the hell is the best player available, regardless of position. 

You keep acting like nobody is going to be available at 12 that's better than White.  I guarantee there will be one.  It's simple math.  I'd even be willing to bet 20 bucks one of Bosa/Allen/Williams will fall to 12 based solely on prospect fatigue.  It happens every year. 

Thankfully the Bengals pick before us.  They'll be drafting White anyway since they have no regard whatsoever for positional value.  I'm almost certain the Bengals are drafting White or a tight end, maybe even a receiver or Ford. 

[Leader]

2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

At the right value.  I'm accused of being the King of the Dogma when I have countlessley acknowledged that exceptions can be made.  ILB, TE, WR, IOL in the first round?  No.  I've frequently acknowledged it's acceptable late.  ILB in the top half of the draft?  Yeah, call me dogmatic.  Especially when there will be an equally promising player at a more important position. 

Assuming two quarterbacks go in the top 11 (which is a very safe assumption)
Assuming one skill position (RB, WR, TE) player goes in the top 11 (which again is a very safe assumption)

We are GUARANTEED one of:
1.
2.
3.
4.Nick Bosa
5. Quinnen Williams
6. Josh Allen
7. Ed Oliver
8. Jonah Williams
9. Rashaan Gary
10. Jawaan Taylor
11. Clelin Ferrel
12. Christian Wilkins
13. Greedy Williams
14. Byron Murphy

EACH of those 11 players is as good a prospect as White, and EACH of them are at a more important position when looking at both PACKER needs and POSITIONAL VALUE. 

So why would we ever draft White at 12? 

I dont believe you'll find me advocating for drafting White at 12. Especially since I hardly know anything specific about him.

I'm not sure of this comment however: Assuming one skill position (RB, WR, TE) player goes in the top 11 (which again is a very safe assumption).

What player or players would you envision from this position grouping going 1-11?
Barclay was drafted real high last year - but prior to that I think RBs had slid considerably.
A WR in the top 11?
A TE?

Not saying you're wrong - just interested what names you think fit that category.

[Packerraymond]

8 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

At the right value.  I'm accused of being the King of the Dogma when I have countlessley acknowledged that exceptions can be made.  ILB, TE, WR, IOL in the first round?  No.  I've frequently acknowledged it's acceptable late.  ILB in the top half of the draft?  Yeah, call me dogmatic.  Especially when there will be an equally promising player at a more important position. 

Assuming two quarterbacks go in the top 11 (which is a very safe assumption)
Assuming one skill position (RB, WR, TE) player goes in the top 11 (which again is a very safe assumption)

We are GUARANTEED one of:
1.
2.
3.
4.Nick Bosa
5. Quinnen Williams
6. Josh Allen
7. Ed Oliver
8. Jonah Williams
9. Rashaan Gary
10. Jawaan Taylor
11. Clelin Ferrel
12. Christian Wilkins
13. Greedy Williams
14. Byron Murphy

EACH of those 11 players is as good a prospect as White, and EACH of them are at a more important position when looking at both PACKER needs and POSITIONAL VALUE. 

So why would we ever draft White at 12? 

White is a better prospect than Taylor, Williams, Murphy, and Wilkins even with a multiplier decreasing his grade due to positional value. 

[MacReady]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

White is a better prospect than Taylor, Williams, Murphy, and Willing even with a multiplier decreasing his grade due to positional value. 

I disagree based solely on the multiplier INCREASING their positional value.

To be honest, I have seen nothing of White so far that has convinced me he can do anything Josh Jones isn't almost physically capable of.  Everything I've seen of him to suggest he's more mentally capable than Jones hasn't been all that convincing.  Every big splash play I've seen out of him has him been literally running unblocked towards the QB.  Is that what's got people so excited about him?  Because literally anybody with speed can run unblocked at a QB. 

I have not seen a single highlight of him actually taking on a block or doing anything other than using his speed.  So what is it about him that's got people so excited? 

[Redt]

13 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I disagree based solely on the multiplier INCREASING their positional value.

To be honest, I have seen nothing of White so far that has convinced me he can do anything Josh Jones isn't almost physically capable of.  Everything I've seen of him to suggest he's more mentally capable than Jones hasn't been all that convincing.  Every big splash play I've seen out of him has him been literally running unblocked towards the QB.  Is that what's got people so excited about him?  Because literally anybody with speed can run unblocked at a QB. 

I have not seen a single highlight of him actually taking on a block or doing anything other than using his speed.  So what is it about him that's got people so excited? 

Sorry i lied

[Fl0nkerton]

Picking White would also be essentially giving up on Oren Burks / wasting a top 100 pick (that we traded up to get) from last year.

[Packerraymond]

25 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

I disagree based solely on the multiplier INCREASING their positional value.

To be honest, I have seen nothing of White so far that has convinced me he can do anything Josh Jones isn't almost physically capable of.  Everything I've seen of him to suggest he's more mentally capable than Jones hasn't been all that convincing.  Every big splash play I've seen out of him has him been literally running unblocked towards the QB.  Is that what's got people so excited about him?  Because literally anybody with speed can run unblocked at a QB. 

I have not seen a single highlight of him actually taking on a block or doing anything other than using his speed.  So what is it about him that's got people so excited? 

Gifted athletically, violent, smart, feel for the game. The good ones don't get blocked, they have the speed to beat the trash and make the sideline play and the IQ to sift through the trash and shoot the gaps between the tackles. You show me a LB that consistently needs to get off blocks, I'll show you a mediocre LB.

 

 

[Packerraymond]

9 minutes ago, Fl0nkerton said:

Picking White would also be essentially giving up on Oren Burks / wasting a top 100 pick (that we traded up to get) from last year.

Should we not draft a S so we don't give up on Jones? Burks showed nothing to reserve his spot. Picks are wasted every year. Looking at the draft that way is a good when end up unemployed as a GM.

[Leader]

5 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Gifted athletically, violent, smart, feel for the game. The good ones don't get blocked, they have the speed to beat the trash and make the sideline play and the IQ to sift through the trash and shoot the gaps between the tackles. You show me a LB that consistently needs to get off blocks, I'll show you a mediocre LB.

 

 

Sounds like a player I'd like on my team.

[JBURGE]

36 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

42 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

At the right value.  I'm accused of being the King of the Dogma when I have countlessley acknowledged that exceptions can be made.  ILB, TE, WR, IOL in the first round?  No.  I've frequently acknowledged it's acceptable late.  ILB in the top half of the draft?  Yeah, call me dogmatic.  Especially when there will be an equally promising player at a more important position. 

Assuming two quarterbacks go in the top 11 (which is a very safe assumption)
Assuming one skill position (RB, WR, TE) player goes in the top 11 (which again is a very safe assumption)

We are GUARANTEED one of:
1.
2.
3.
4.Nick Bosa
5. Quinnen Williams
6. Josh Allen
7. Ed Oliver
8. Jonah Williams
9. Rashaan Gary
10. Jawaan Taylor
11. Clelin Ferrel
12. Christian Wilkins
13. Greedy Williams
14. Byron Murphy

EACH of those 11 players is as good a prospect as White, and EACH of them are at a more important position when looking at both PACKER needs and POSITIONAL VALUE. 

So why would we ever draft White at 12? 

White is a better prospect than Taylor, Williams, Murphy, and Wilkins even with a multiplier decreasing his grade due to positional value. 

This is kinda my point. I would rank Devin White above Jonah Williams, Taylor, Ferrell, Wilkins, Greedy and Murphy. Ferrell gets the nod due to position. 

I don't have tiers done tho and I don't care really until after the combine is done. Not saying I think we should take Devin over them, but if he slots into that tier with Oliver/Gary in that Tier 2 of guys (behind T1 Bosa/Allen/Quinnen), then I am ok with taking that tier 2 player over a tier 3

[Fl0nkerton]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Should we not draft a S so we don't give up on Jones? Burks showed nothing to reserve his spot. Picks are wasted every year. Looking at the draft that way is a good when end up unemployed as a GM.

Jones has had more than his fair share of opportunities. I'm just thinking Burks deserves a longer leash since he got injured early in the season.

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, Fl0nkerton said:

Jones has had more than his fair share of opportunities. I'm just thinking Burks deserves a longer leash since he got injured early in the season.

In the scenario where an ILB is my BPA on day 1 or 2 I don't really care that Burks is on my roster I'm taking the best player. There's guys like GMo or Tony Brown that got limited chances and held their own that I'd give that chance to. Burks is how you end up with Allen Barbre or Kentrell Brice starting. He hasn't earned the right for us to pass on good players on his behalf. He can either beat the guy out or play good ST on his rookie deal.