Trade Deadline Thread

[JBURGE]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

But what halfway decent pass rusher is going to be available?

Someone on Jax if they lose this weekend. But probably not since they traded for Hyde

[Leader]

41 minutes ago, JBURGE said:

I would love Landon Collins. I'd give a 2nd. He needs to be signed this offseason and he will set the safety market imo so that's why I don't give a 1. Joyner and HHCD are probably looking at around $10-12MM, but I would imagine Landon would get more than that, let's say $13-14MM. 

There's a reason you love him - because he's one of the few producing secondary players for the NYG's. He's a player and I see no reason they get rid of him at this stage other than NOT wanting to pay him market price next year when he's a UFA. That said - he's a SS - not a FS - and we're building a body count of SS already on the roster. They're not exactly knocking it dead "production-wise" thats for sure - but we've got a lot of them at this stage.

[MacReady]

Just now, CWood21 said:

But what halfway decent pass rusher is going to be available?

Dante Fowler.  Markus Golden.  Both better than Fackrell/Gilbert, both might even be better than Matthews or Perry. 

[CWood21]

Just now, skibrett15 said:

the person in charge of the raiders is an idiot, and the NFL is much harder to pull this off in because of the unpredictability of draft picks and the minimal impact that a single player can have on a team.

In the NBA... with extremely few exceptions - the best player in a draft is in the top 1-3 spots of that draft.  The best players in the NBA frequently were number 1 overall picks.  Who is the best NFL #1 pick right now? Clowney?

One player can change an entire team and make them from bad to playoff team.  Two players make you bad to playoff contender.  Three gives you championship title chances.  Even if you aren't a great drafter... taking a franchise changing player is usually the obvious choice and there's often a consensus when there's a truly revolutionary guy in a class. 

Of course it looks like the 6ers missed on that with Fultz vs Tatum, but by then they had already fired the GM who got them there and now they've fired that guy because he was doing weird stuff on twitter... so.. yeah not sure where I'm going with that.

He's an idiot because why exactly?  Doing what 31 other GMs wouldn't do?  You talk about the NFL being harder to pull this off because of the unpredictability, and I'd make the argument that you're lucky if you get one or two difference makers in a given draft.  That isn't the case in the NFL.  If you're evaluating effectively, you're going to find quality players later in the draft.  There's a bigger pool of players to choose from in the NFL than there is in the NBA.  And quite frankly, it isn't even close.  The reason why the Sixers' tank worked so well was because they lucked into the top draft pick with Ben Simmons, had a guy with significant injury history fall to them in Embiid, and had enough assets to move up and grab another #1 overall pick in Markelle Fultz.  Nobody cares they whiffed on Jahlil Okafor.  What happens if they pick a spot later every year after Okafor?  They're looking at a roster with Brandon Ingram and Josh Jackson instead of Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz.  Good, but not nearly as good as they are right now.  Don't confuse the fact that things went right for Philadelphia, and refuse to acknowledge the risk they took.  You're making a presumptive assumption that the Raiders' picks will be whiffs.

[Leader]

1 hour ago, Outpost31 said:

Adam Schefter has a potential trade target listing for all 32 NFL teams.  You can see 4 of them before he asks you to pay 4.99 a month.  Who pays for these things to make these businesses think that's okay? 

People who like Adam Schefter and dont mind paying five bucks a month to read his material.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, Outpost31 said:

Dante Fowler.  Markus Golden.  Both better than Fackrell/Gilbert, both might even be better than Matthews or Perry. 

Jaguars haven't moved Fowler yet, despite rumblings that he's been available.  To me, that shows that the Jaguars really aren't all that interested in moving him unless they get a great deal.  Plus, they just acquired Carlos Hyde which to me indicates they don't plan on selling.  They're a game out of the AFCS lead, so it's unlikely they're selling just yet.  Markus Golden is a FA at the end of the year, how much are you willing to give up for a rental?  He's got 0.5 sacks over the last two seasons, and he's only played in 8 games over that same period.  That 2016 season seems like a mirage.  I wouldn't mind throwing a conditional late round pick at him, but I'm not giving up anything more for him.

[skibrett15]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

You're making a presumptive assumption that the Raiders' picks will be whiffs.

that's kinda the point.  In the NBA if you're at the bottom of the draft you have no chance at the top talent.  In the NFL you don't have to tank to draft really really well.

The sixers did whiff on a bunch of picks.  But because they had such high picks they managed to get 2 all star players out of it so it didn't really matter.

They sold and sold and sold their current assets to build future assets, they managed to hit on one decent player in saric later in the draft, whiffed on okafor, repeatedly went after high upside players with risk like Embiid rather than safer mediocre players like wiggins or parker who went to other teams going safer

 

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

lucked into the top draft pick with Ben Simmons,

it's hard to call something luck when you plan to do it.  Was it lucky that Simmons was as good as he was and was the consensus #1, I guess.  But the trend is there in the NBA that the consensus top player is an impact player and a franchise changing player.  It's not really there in the NFL.  Just look at this list of first overall selections, and the whiffs there often have the next best guy going 2 or 3...  In the NFL sometimes the best player in a draft is in the 3rd or 6th round.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/

 

Look, I don't mind the rebuild strategy from Gruden the GM.  As I said in my other post, Gruden the coach is an idiot not equipped for today's NFL.  He will amass draft picks, and even if he does ok with them, he'll coach his way out of a job much sooner than later.  He should have taken a Tom Coughlin type role.  That's what he's suited for.

[Leader]

4 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

You talk about the NFL being harder to pull this off because of the unpredictability, and I'd make the argument that you're lucky if you get one or two difference makers in a given draft.  That isn't the case in the NFL.  If you're evaluating effectively, you're going to find quality players later in the draft.  There's a bigger pool of players to choose from in the NFL than there is in the NBA.  And quite frankly, it isn't even close.

Edited your mssg down a bit......but I agree.

[TheBitzMan]

34 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And that's different than the Sixers how?  If it goes well, they're the Sixers.  If it doesn't, they're the Browns.  But they're doing the same damn thing.  Blowing up the talent for draft picks, and hoping they hit.

I don't get this narrative around the Browns' tank not working. In the last 2 drafts alone (the picks they accumulated during the firesale for draft picks/tanking), they have added Myles Garret - Jabrill Peppers - David Njoku - Baker Mayfield - Denzel Ward in the first round. Not to mention the $100m in cap space the accrued to acquire Jarvis and a top tier Oline. Once they get rid of Hue and add another to 10 pick, their roster will be miles better than anything they could've dreamed about before Sashi. 

I agree with everything else about your NBA/NFL tanking debate. Teams that have been middling in the bottom tier for years would be wise to tank and not overpay assets that haven't gotten them anywhere. If Gruden can pick the right players is another debate. 

[MacReady]

I just saw that Schefter Tweeted yesterday that the Giants are trading Eli.  Don't know if that was a troll job or not, but he also said he thinks the Broncos are buyers, not sellers.  Eli in Denver sounds too perfect to NOT be true.  Both Manning brothers finishing their career in Denver.  That's the type of thing that makes perfect sense to me. 

[TheBitzMan]

Just now, Outpost31 said:

I just saw that Schefter Tweeted yesterday that the Giants are trading Eli.  Don't know if that was a troll job or not, but he also said he thinks the Broncos are buyers, not sellers.  Eli in Denver sounds too perfect to NOT be true.  Both Manning brothers finishing their career in Denver.  That's the type of thing that makes perfect sense to me. 

He was trolling with the Eli Apple trade. 

[CWood21]

3 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

that's kinda the point.  In the NBA if you're at the bottom of the draft you have no chance at the top talent.  In the NFL you don't have to tank to draft really really well.

The sixers did whiff on a bunch of picks.  But because they had such high picks they managed to get 2 all star players out of it so it didn't really matter.

They sold and sold and sold their current assets to build future assets, they managed to hit on one decent player in saric later in the draft, whiffed on okafor, repeatedly went after high upside players with risk like Embiid rather than safer mediocre players like wiggins or parker who went to other teams going safer

So you don't see any issue in your train of logic?  You're already making the assumption that whoever the Raiders pick is going to be a bust.  That's awful logic no matter which way you slice it.  If the Raiders knew they were going to pick busts, you think they would have traded Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper?  No.  But if they turn around and use those picks to select a franchise QB, LT, and EDGE those trades will easily make these trades worth it.  Why you're assuming that the Raiders picks will all whiff is beyond me.  Really, the only whiff the Sixers had was Jahlil Okafor.  And apparently Hinkie got overruled on that one, since apparently he wanted Porzingis.  But that's neither here nor there.

Oakland is doing exactly what Philadelphia did.  They're selling current assets for future assets.  We have the ability to say that Philadelphia did it well because they were successful.  Oakland hasn't had that opportunity to do so, so it's mind-boggling that you're already ready to pass judgement when Oakland hasn't had that opportunity.

8 minutes ago, skibrett15 said:

it's hard to call something luck when you plan to do it.  Was it lucky that Simmons was as good as he was and was the consensus #1, I guess.  But the trend is there in the NBA that the consensus top player is an impact player and a franchise changing player.  It's not really there in the NFL.  Just look at this list of first overall selections, and the whiffs there often have the next best guy going 2 or 3...  In the NFL sometimes the best player in a draft is in the 3rd or 6th round.

IF the NBA lottery isn't the definition of luck, I don't know what to tell you.  Since the beginning of the NBA lottery, 8 out of the 33 times the worst team has gotten the highest draft pick, including the last four.  When Sam Hinkie started the huge rebuild, the worst team had won the top pick 14% of the time.  That's not a good odd to take.  Add on the fact that the draft fluctuates from year to year.  You might get a year where you're taking Ben Simmons.  You also might get a year where you're taking Anthony Bennett.  If you're going to believe that luck didn't play a part in the Sixers' success, I really don't know what to tell you.

[MacReady]

Just now, TheBitzMan said:

He was trolling with the Eli Apple trade. 

Or was he? 

[TheBitzMan]

Just now, Outpost31 said:

Or was he? 

Elway would be the one to trade assets for Eli. 

[CWood21]

4 minutes ago, TheBitzMan said:

I don't get this narrative around the Browns' tank not working. In the last 2 drafts alone (the picks they accumulated during the firesale for draft picks/tanking), they have added Myles Garret - Jabrill Peppers - David Njoku - Baker Mayfield - Denzel Ward in the first round. Not to mention the $100m in cap space the accrued to acquire Jarvis and a top tier Oline. Once they get rid of Hue and add another to 10 pick, their roster will be miles better than anything they could've dreamed about before Sashi. 

I agree with everything else about your NBA/NFL tanking debate. Teams that have been middling in the bottom tier for years would be wise to tank and not overpay assets that haven't gotten them anywhere. If Gruden can pick the right players is another debate. 

It's confirmation bias at it's finest.  If the picks are whiffs, the rebuild was a mistake.  If the picks are hits, then your GM is a genius.  It's an arbitrary way to decide something.  Teams who have plateaued who aren't good enough to win a Super Bowl (or in the case of the Sixers the Larry O'Brien Trophy) and aren't bad enough to draft an impact player are in no man's land.  You either need to go all in one way or the other.  Half assing either one gets you nowhere.  Cleveland is sitting exponentially better than they were just a few years ago before they started their rebuild.  Did they hit on all their picks?  Obviously not.  But they're also not futile either.