4th Best WR In The League?

[SmittyBacall]

3 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

If he does his job well enough to move the chains and score TDs does it matter?

I think it does when you get to this point in comparisons. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'd rather have a guy who can threaten all 3 levels of the field at a high level - and requires that defensive attention - than someone who is limited to being a chain mover who only threatens the short to intermediate areas at a high level. Wouldn't you? Jones, Brown, Hopkins, OBJ, Green, Evans etc. can do all three. Even by your standards Thomas is limited in comparison. And that doesn't mean those names are better than Thomas, but I think it's important to consider. It's like comparing Zeke to David Johnson. Zeke is probably the better pure runner at tailback, but leaves a lot to be desired as a receiver. Johnson on the other hand is still a damn good rusher but offers a ton of value elsewhere in the passing game. Given perfect situations to either back, I'm taking Johnson because he can do more. 

My beef with Thomas, if you can call it that, is he's perfectly situated in a position to excel. Under Payton, with Brees, tons of volume, in that offense - you couldn't paint a prettier picture. He's dominating in the areas he's limited to, and his stats are as good as anyone. The reality these lists are essentially solely based on receiving production in the now. Which I think sheds a negative light on some supremely gifted receivers in lesser positions and emphasizes receivers who are filling the stat sheet in positions that are more advantageous in comparison. Would Reggie Wayne be the same Reggie Wayne we know today if he didn't play with Manning? Still an unbelievably gifted receiver, but I'm willing to guess his career stats wouldn't compare on another team in another situation. Or look at Randy Moss in Oakland versus Randy Moss as a Patriot. The difference in opinion is immense.

And this isn't to say Thomas is just a system product. He's obviously not and he is in the discussion here. I'm just trying to equal the playing field as much as possible and view production as a slice to a bigger pie. I don't want to penalize Thomas as much as I'd like to lift the handicap bestowed on other receivers. If we're going to make these lists the playing field needs to be universally balanced, and I think the individual's ability should be paramount. But it all depends on what your definition is of "top 10 X". What's the protocol for these lists? It's never really outlined. Is it who is the most unstoppable right now, or in his career? Or who would you take right now in any offensive scheme? Who's the most productive? Who's the most talented? And so on. Depending on how you personally rank have no problem with Thomas being this high. 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

The thread isn’t about production, though. Obviously within the scope of a game, a score is a score is a score. 

Would you say Wes Welker was as good a receiver as Julio Jones? Of course not. Julio can reliably catch contested balls. He’s more of a YAC threat. He can get deep. He’s bigger, more physical. Much faster. Production isn’t the end-all in a player comparison thread, especially when looking at player that are similarly productive. 

It makes absolute sense to look at an area where a player is lacking and factor it in, during a player comparison. 

Production is a combination of many things.  What I'm more saying, is that Thomas does what he does so well, that he can be relied on nearly every snap.  Whereas another receiver may beat you in several different ways, Thomas will just beat you in his own way.  Either way, you get beat.

At leas thus far.  He may get shut down one day, and his weakness exposed.  But it hasn't really happened yet.  And I've seen other elite receivers get shut down as well, so it wouldn't be the end of the world unless it becomes a pattern defenses start exposing.

 

[SmittyBacall]

19 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

But if the end result is the same, can you say one is better than the other? One may be more versatile, but that versatility doesn't necessarily translate to more production.  

Right, but it does make a player more valuable because he can do more. Which means that defenses have more to worry about. 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, SmittyBacall said:

I think it does when you get to this point in comparisons. We're splitting hairs at this point. I'd rather have a guy who can threaten all 3 levels of the field at a high level - and requires that defensive attention - than someone who is limited to being a chain mover who only threatens the short to intermediate areas at a high level. Wouldn't you? Jones, Brown, Hopkins, OBJ, Green, Evans etc. can do all three. Even by your standards Thomas is limited in comparison. And that doesn't mean those names are better than Thomas, but I think it's important to consider. It's like comparing Zeke to David Johnson. Zeke is probably the better pure runner at tailback, but leaves a lot to be desired as a receiver. Johnson on the other hand is still a damn good rusher but offers a ton of value elsewhere in the passing game. Given perfect situations to either back, I'm taking Johnson because he can do more. 

My beef with Thomas, if you can call it that, is he's perfectly situated in a position to excel. Under Payton, with Brees, tons of volume, in that offense - you couldn't paint a prettier picture. He's dominating in the areas he's limited to, and his stats are as good as anyone. The reality these lists are essentially solely based on receiving production in the now. Which I think sheds a negative light on some supremely gifted receivers in lesser positions and emphasizes receivers who are filling the stat sheet in positions that are more advantageous in comparison. Would Reggie Wayne be the same Reggie Wayne we know today if he didn't play with Manning? Still an unbelievably gifted receiver, but I'm willing to guess his career stats wouldn't compare on another team in another situation. Or look at Randy Moss in Oakland versus Randy Moss as a Patriot. The difference in opinion is immense.

And this isn't to say Thomas is just a system product. He's obviously not and he is in the discussion here. I'm just trying to equal the playing field as much as possible and view production as a slice to a bigger pie. I don't want to penalize Thomas as much as I'd like to lift the handicap bestowed on other receivers. If we're going to make these lists the playing field needs to be universally balanced, and I think the individual's ability should be paramount. But it all depends on what your definition is of "top 10 X". What's the protocol for these lists? It's never really outlined. Is it who is the most unstoppable right now, or in his career? Or who would you take right now in any offensive scheme? Who's the most productive? Who's the most talented? And so on. Depending on how you personally rank have no problem with Thomas being this high. 

Just to be clear, I'm not claiming Thomas as the best WR in the NFL.  I definitely think Julio and AB are better, perhaps 1-2 others.  After that, maybe, maybe not.

And sure, he plays with  Brees, Payton, and Kamara, but it's not like other WRs don't benefit also.  Julio in that Falcons offense, AB with Big Ben, Bell, Connor, etc.  There are some WRs like Odell that definitely suffer from their supporting cast.

 

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, SmittyBacall said:

Right, but it does make a player more valuable because he can do more. Which means that defenses have more to worry about. 

Saints don't even throw deep though.  It thus far hasn't hurt the Saints one bit to not have a deep threat.   The end result is still march down the field and score.

It may one day haunt us that we don't throw deep, but that day has yet to come.

[Soko]

8 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Production is a combination of many things.  What I'm more saying, is that Thomas does what he does so well, that he can be relied on nearly every snap.  Whereas another receiver may beat you in several different ways, Thomas will just beat you in his own way.  Either way, you get beat.

At leas thus far.  He may get shut down one day, and his weakness exposed.  But it hasn't really happened yet.  And I've seen other elite receivers get shut down as well, so it wouldn't be the end of the world unless it becomes a pattern defenses start exposing.

 

You’re sidestepping the comments, though. We’re not talking about whether or not Thomas beats his man. We know Thomas is a great at what he does. 

We’re talking about the notion that it doesn’t matter if he has any deficiencies/skills where he isn’t as good as other WRs, because he’s productive or beating his man. It definitely matters. I used a handful of examples. 

All these elite receivers beat their guys. Some do it in one of a few ways, some do it in many. When we are directly comparing them, then it makes sense to compare their skill sets. 

[Soko]

3 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Saints don't even throw deep though.  It thus far hasn't hurt the Saints one bit to not have a deep threat.   The end result is still march down the field and score.

It may one day haunt us that we don't throw deep, but that day has yet to come.

The debate isn’t who is the best fit for the Saints offense...

[Jlowe22]

17 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

You’re sidestepping the comments, though. We’re not talking about whether or not Thomas beats his man. We know Thomas is a great at what he does. 

We’re talking about the notion that it doesn’t matter if he has any deficiencies/skills where he isn’t as good as other WRs, because he’s productive or beating his man. It definitely matters. I used a handful of examples. 

All these elite receivers beat their guys. Some do it in one of a few ways, some do it in many. When we are directly comparing them, then it makes sense to compare their skill sets. 

Yes we can compare their skill sets.  They are all well known.  If you choose to rank Thomas lower than someone who can threaten deep, that's fine.  

I, personally, think Thomas does what he does so well, he can be top 5.  

[MrOaktown_56]

If you put Green in New Orlean's offense, I shudder to think how he would produce. Dude would push for 2000 yards IMO.

[Jlowe22]

40 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

If you put Green in New Orlean's offense, I shudder to think how he would produce. Dude would push for 2000 yards IMO.

Yes, Green is a guy I often forget about.  

[RandyMossIsBoss]

1. AB
2. Julio
3. Hopkins
4. Odell
5. Green
6. Thomas
7. Keenan
8. Hill
9. Thielen

As you can see, I am big on consistency and really value the guys who have been producing at a high level over several years. I think there's a bit of a drop-off after these guys. I don't know what is wrong with Evans, who'd normally be in this group, but he's very inconsistent this year.

Next group is pretty big for me, includes Evans, Cooks, Davante, Alshon, Robinson, Diggs, Woods, Kupp, JuJu, and I guess Sanders. Maybe Tate? Probably missing a few others too.

[JJ6]

2 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

1. AB
2. Julio
3. Hopkins
4. Odell
5. Green
6. Thomas
7. Keenan
8. Hill
9. Thielen

As you can see, I am big on consistency and really value the guys who have been producing at a high level over several years. I think there's a bit of a drop-off after these guys. I don't know what is wrong with Evans, who'd normally be in this group, but he's very inconsistent this year.

Next group is pretty big for me, includes Evans, Cooks, Davante, Alshon, Robinson, Diggs, Woods, Kupp, JuJu, and I guess Sanders. Maybe Tate? Probably missing a few others too.

How much do you factor in QB play to a players consistency?

[FalconFan13]

2 hours ago, jarren said:

How much do you factor in QB play to a players consistency?

Not to sure but based just on receivers alone my list is very similar to his as to what i think they could if they were to all play with the same QB.  

Only difference for me would be Evans at 7 and Keenan out.

[JMG5]

I voted OBJ.

[SmittyBacall]

15 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Saints don't even throw deep though.  It thus far hasn't hurt the Saints one bit to not have a deep threat.   The end result is still march down the field and score.

It may one day haunt us that we don't throw deep, but that day has yet to come.

Tre'Quan Smith definitely qualifies as a deep threat. You may not throw deep, but his presence is known.