MVP Race

[Chargers]

58 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Mahomes is winning MVP

[SotanKing]

2 hours ago, DJB86 said:

Drew Brees leads the NFL in QB rating (115.7), completion percentage (74.4), game-winning drives (7) & fourth-quarter comebacks (6). He is 6-1 against teams with winning records. And most important, his team has the best record in the NFL: 13-2.

Mahomes leads NFL in QBR with 81.4.  Mahomes also leads league in TDs. Has 32 road TDs.

Mahomes also could have had more game winning drives & 4th Quarter comebacks if his defense could have been held the opposition after offense scored TD...what happened in the match against Pats? Mahomes & Chiefs offense equalized/took the lead multiple times in the 4th quarter, only for their defense to give up lead in the end. Among the 4 losses which Chiefs suffered, Mahomes didn't even have a chance to tie/win the game in 2 of those matches. Both Pats & Chargers won in the final plays of the game. Among the other 2 losses, Mahomes had chance to equalize/win. It wasn't his fault that his receiver fumbled the ball in final drive of the match against Seattle yesterday, thereby ending the game.

So, the only game where Mahomes couldn't tie/win in the game winning drive was match against Rams where he threw an interception in the end. Even Brees threw a pick in the end against Cowboys in the final drive.

Mahomes has also been pretty consistent throughout the season, much more consistent than Brees. Mahomes lowest QBR of entire season is 61.9 (against Chargers last week). Brees has had 4 games where his QBR was less than 61.9. His QBR in those 4 games was - 36.9 (vs Gaints), 47.3 ( vs Vikings),  16.3 ( vs Dallas), 28.5 (vs Panthers). Funny thing is Saints actually won 3 of those 4 games & lost the other game by 3 points. So, despite Brees having 4 bad/mediocre games, Saints still won 3 out of those 4 & lost the other game by narrow margin. If Mahomes has similar games like those, this Chiefs team is most probably losing all those 4 games.

If the question was who has been better this season, maybe then there could be some debate regarding whether Mahomes or Brees has been better but if it's about 'Most Valuable Player', then no one has been as important to their team as Mahomes has been for Chiefs this season. And he is guiding them towards No1 seed in AFC.

[MookieMonstah]

The best part about this whole thread is replace Brees with Rodgers and Mahomes with Brees in 2011 and it’s the same arguments.

[showtime]

At this point, I would be shocked if Drew Brees doesn't win the MVP.  Doesn't deserve it, but it's like Kobe Bryant in 2008.  One of the all-time greats who didn't have an MVP yet and finally was on a team that finished #1 seed after losing so many years before (when Shaq left).  Kobe put up some pretty Godly seasons, but the team wasn't very good record-wise.  Either missed the playoffs or was a lower seed.  That's pretty similar to Brees in some regards.  He's had some insane numbers in seasons where his team didn't make the postseason.

This is the media's chance to crown an all-time great, so they're going to do it.  Patrick Mahomes should win MVP, just like Chris Paul should have won the 2008 NBA MVP, but it probably won't happen.  The thing that sucks about it is, Paul was so great that season and he really hasn't ever came as close to winning an MVP as he did the year he should have won it.  Mahomes should win here and he may never get another chance like this again.

[jaa1025]

14 hours ago, Bearerofnews said:

Outside of offensive sets, teams are not running the same system. They arent using all the shifts, movement, the different off balance alignments, reversals, jet sweeps, etc. If you look at agg% under Next Gen Stats that measures tight window throws, Mahomes isn't throwing in tight windows near the same rate as other top qbs. I have personally never seen someone have so many easy wide open throws. I dont know if voters will look at that. But i think its well known how diff this system looks from any this year and from KC last year. There has been strong variations to this system from last year. 

Something else voters will look at is the 0-4 in primetime games vs winning teams. They will see the opposing qb was able to do enough to win when their defense gave up 51, 40, 31 and 28. Yet Mahomes couldnt do enough with the #1 offense to when these shootouts, but these other qbs he played did.  I think if he gets 5000k and 50 and finishes #1 seed, he will win. If he loses to Oak, goes 5 seed and has a bad game in the process and doesn't break 5000 or 50, i think they will give it to Brees.

 

My proclamation of Mahomes getting the nod was prefaced by if he had 5000 yds and 50 tds.

Yes, there are several teams running the same system or slight variations of the same system. The bears are running almost an exact copy of the playbook that Reid is running in KC...because he was using that same exact playbook less than a year ago. Regardless, it was the same system that KC has used under Reid since he got here and please let me know how Alex Smith did? He had 2 bad years, 2 average years and 1 statistically good season. One season in there he went an entire season without throwing a TD to a WR. 

Tight Window stats are the most garbage stats in all of football. They don't tell you anything. Mahomes is throwing people open and he manipulates defenses with his eyes and head better than anyone I have ever seen. That doesn't show up in a garbage tight window stat. He also sees the field better than anyone I have ever seen at the position and that doesn't show up in that garbage tight window stat. He buys times with his legs often and leads the league in plays outside of the pocket, which gets his receivers open. That doesn't show in that garbage tight window stat. I will listen to people's arguments about pretty much any stat except this stat because of how bad it is.

The Chiefs are actually 2-4 against winning teams in prime time games. The Broncos were a winning team and that game was for the division lead when they played on MNF. The Bengals were 4-2 on SNF, tied for the lead in their division. Against the Rams, Patriots and Chargers he put his team in position to win in the 4th quarter but his defense blew it. Mahomes played well in those games. Against the Seahawks, he played well but 2 fumbles in the 1st half by his RB Williams and WR Conley were a 2 score swing and his defense couldn't get off the field in the 2nd half. This is a team game and his defense is about to set a team record for the most points given up in a season. The defense is a reason this team has 4 losses and Mahomes is the reason this team is even sniffing the playoffs this year. 

Brees is a good game manager at this point in his career and his defense has carried him the past 4 games. I don't think the Saints are the best team in the NFL but by circumstance, they have the best record. 

For Mahomes to get it, the Chiefs will need to beat the Raiders and Mahomes will need at least 2 TD and 200 yards (to get to 50/5k milestone). Anything less and it will probable go to Brees.

 

[jaa1025]

4 hours ago, showtime said:

At this point, I would be shocked if Drew Brees doesn't win the MVP.  Doesn't deserve it, but it's like Kobe Bryant in 2008.  One of the all-time greats who didn't have an MVP yet and finally was on a team that finished #1 seed after losing so many years before (when Shaq left).  Kobe put up some pretty Godly seasons, but the team wasn't very good record-wise.  Either missed the playoffs or was a lower seed.  That's pretty similar to Brees in some regards.  He's had some insane numbers in seasons where his team didn't make the postseason.

This is the media's chance to crown an all-time great, so they're going to do it.  Patrick Mahomes should win MVP, just like Chris Paul should have won the 2008 NBA MVP, but it probably won't happen.  The thing that sucks about it is, Paul was so great that season and he really hasn't ever came as close to winning an MVP as he did the year he should have won it.  Mahomes should win here and he may never get another chance like this again.

We live in the day of participation trophies. I don't want to believe, but I'm afraid you may be right. For Mahomes to have any chance he needs to make it impossible for voters. 50 TD 5k yards and #1 seed.

[MookieMonstah]

54 minutes ago, jaa1025 said:

We live in the day of participation trophies. I don't want to believe, but I'm afraid you may be right. For Mahomes to have any chance he needs to make it impossible for voters. 50 TD 5k yards and #1 seed.

Still won’t be impossible. See - 2011.

[Jlowe22]

52 minutes ago, jaa1025 said:

We live in the day of participation trophies. I don't want to believe, but I'm afraid you may be right. For Mahomes to have any chance he needs to make it impossible for voters. 50 TD 5k yards and #1 seed.

MVP award is subjective and voted on by the media.  Nothing about it really matters in anything important, and people should stop using the award in comparisons because of it's subjective nature.  The important part for comparisons sake is did the player have an MVP caliber season or not, not whether media voters gave him a trophy or not.

Teams still compete with each other and try to win games.  That's the important part.  The MVP award doesn't affect the competition and isn't a participation trophy.

All this said I hope Mahomes wins the MVP because he deserves it.  But if he does get shafted, well it sucks, but that's part of it and proves more than ever how subjective the award is and how little it matters.

[Bearerofnews]

1 hour ago, jaa1025 said:

Yes, there are several teams running the same system or slight variations of the same system. The bears are running almost an exact copy of the playbook that Reid is running in KC...because he was using that same exact playbook less than a year ago. Regardless, it was the same system that KC has used under Reid since he got here and please let me know how Alex Smith did? He had 2 bad years, 2 average years and 1 statistically good season. One season in there he went an entire season without throwing a TD to a WR. 

Tight Window stats are the most garbage stats in all of football. They don't tell you anything. Mahomes is throwing people open and he manipulates defenses with his eyes and head better than anyone I have ever seen. That doesn't show up in a garbage tight window stat. He also sees the field better than anyone I have ever seen at the position and that doesn't show up in that garbage tight window stat. He buys times with his legs often and leads the league in plays outside of the pocket, which gets his receivers open. That doesn't show in that garbage tight window stat. I will listen to people's arguments about pretty much any stat except this stat because of how bad it is.

The Chiefs are actually 2-4 against winning teams in prime time games. The Broncos were a winning team and that game was for the division lead when they played on MNF. The Bengals were 4-2 on SNF, tied for the lead in their division. Against the Rams, Patriots and Chargers he put his team in position to win in the 4th quarter but his defense blew it. Mahomes played well in those games. Against the Seahawks, he played well but 2 fumbles in the 1st half by his RB Williams and WR Conley were a 2 score swing and his defense couldn't get off the field in the 2nd half. This is a team game and his defense is about to set a team record for the most points given up in a season. The defense is a reason this team has 4 losses and Mahomes is the reason this team is even sniffing the playoffs this year. 

Brees is a good game manager at this point in his career and his defense has carried him the past 4 games. I don't think the Saints are the best team in the NFL but by circumstance, they have the best record. 

For Mahomes to get it, the Chiefs will need to beat the Raiders and Mahomes will need at least 2 TD and 200 yards (to get to 50/5k milestone). Anything less and it will probable go to Brees.

 

Before i pick apart everything you typed. Which i got to be honest with you, so much of what you typed reeks of all time homerisim or someone who has watched football no longer than 1 year. But before we get to that, just a quick question to confirm what kind of poster i am dealing with. What is mahomes overall record vs winning teams?

[lancerman]

11 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

The best part about this whole thread is replace Brees with Rodgers and Mahomes with Brees in 2011 and it’s the same arguments.

Except for the two most important factors. 

1. Rodgers broke the all time single season passer rating record. 

2. Rodgers led his team to 15-1

[jaa1025]

10 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

The best part about this whole thread is replace Brees with Rodgers and Mahomes with Brees in 2011 and it’s the same arguments.

Rodgers and Brees stats were similar in 11.

Rodgers 4643, 45 TD, 6 INT, 122.5 (15 games) 

Brees 5476 yds, 46 TD, 14 INT, 110.6 (16 games)

Brees broke the passing yard record and his own completion % record, Rodgers broke the rating record. Both had similar TD, Rodgers threw less INT. They had a head to head match up and Rodgers won the match up and was more efficient than Brees. Also mentioned Brees played in a dome 11 times that season where the Saints averaged 45 points compared to 26 outside of the dome that year compared to Rodgers who played most of his games outside. 

It's really not similar to 11 because Brees stats this season is more comparable to Alex Smith's season last year than it is an MVP type of season. Alex Smith last year had 4k yards, 25/5 and led the league in rating. He was a probowl alternate. 

[lancerman]

The most annoying part of the MVP discussion every year is the amount of fans that ignore what the voters historically award the MVP for and just make meaningless arguments that don't track with the voters. 

Mahomes is about to have a 50 TD season and get his team the number 1 seed in the playoffs. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the only two QB's who ever got 50TD's in a season. They both got their team the number one seed. They both won MVP.  

[Jlowe22]

2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The most annoying part of the MVP discussion every year is the amount of fans that ignore what the voters historically award the MVP for and just make meaningless arguments that don't track with the voters. 

Mahomes is about to have a 50 TD season and get his team the number 1 seed in the playoffs. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the only two QB's who ever got 50TD's in a season. They both got their team the number one seed. They both won MVP.  

The voters care about wins, narratives, and game winning drives.  Peyton won the MVP in 09 mostly due to those advantages.

[lancerman]

Just now, Jlowe22 said:

The voters care about wins, narratives, and game winning drives.  Peyton won the MVP in 09 mostly due to those advantages.

That's my point though. They want you to be on a top seeded team (preferably someone who got the bye week), have some sexy stats, and have been a consistant frontrunner with a good story. 

When people start diving into "well so and so had this many fewer pass attempts but their production is here and they have a TD% of x", you already lost the argument.

[Jlowe22]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

That's my point though. They want you to be on a top seeded team (preferably someone who got the bye week), have some sexy stats, and have been a consistant frontrunner with a good story. 

When people start diving into "well so and so had this many fewer pass attempts but their production is here and they have a TD% of x", you already lost the argument.

Yes there's no need to go in depth with stats, they care about the obvious things.