Random Ravens Thoughts: New Forum Edition

[diamondbull424]

9 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Oh that Titan's forum is great right now. Apparently our defense overachieved because of Pees, and past Mosley, old Suggs, and Weddle, whom do we really have? I actually feel for them on some level, just no comprehension of what's coming.

@coordinator0

I think this is the gif you were looking for. Fits the situation oh so perfectly.

[DontTazeMeBro]

I definitely don’t think we overachieved. But I do think this forum grossly overrates the talent level of this defense. Our best player is probably a freakin nose tackle 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

I definitely don’t think we overachieved. But I do think this forum grossly overrates the talent level of this defense. Our best player is probably a freakin nose tackle 

Do you think we don't have any All-Pros on defense because we don't have the talent, or because Pees' scheme and play calling and coaching hindered the talent we do have? I think we have several All-Pro players on defense: Jimmy Smith (when healthy), Eric Weddle, CJ Mosley, Brandon Williams, and Terrell Suggs. Beyond that we have good young talent with Matthew Judon, Marlon Humphrey, Michael Pierce, and Tavon Young (when he comes back healthy). Then you have solid players like Brandon Carr and Tony Jefferson. Then you have your "meh" guys like Urban, Carl Davis, Willie Henry and Patrick Onwuasor and Maurice Canady.

I don't think the problem is the talent, nor do I think it's being overrated. I think it's not being maximized like it could be - not even close. 

[DontTazeMeBro]

Weddle is old fragile and can’t tackle. Mosley is a good player who can’t cover. Suggs is still a good pass rusher. Not dominant or anything. Williams and Pierce, run defenders. Humphrey looks promising. But the last time we saw him he was making LaFell look like an All-Pro. Jefferson, another run defender who was like the 5th or 6th best player on his last defense. Onwuasor And Davis suck.

We have a bunch of good players who are mostly good because of one thing.And for a lot of them that one thing is becoming less and less relevant in today’s game.

How many defenses in the league would Williams, Mosley, Suggs, or Smith be their best player? Barely any. 49ers. Packers, POSSIBLY. Bears, I’d probably take Akiem Hicks. Patriots probably. Jets probably. Bills maybe, don’t know for sure how good White is.Colts yes. Browns yes. That’s really it.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Weddle is old fragile and can’t tackle. Mosley is a good player who can’t cover. Suggs is still a good pass rusher. Not dominant or anything. Williams and Pierce, run defenders. Humphrey looks promising. But the last time we saw him he was making LaFell look like an All-Pro. Jefferson, another run defender who was like the 5th or 6th best player on his last defense. Onwuasor And Davis suck.

We have a bunch of good players who are mostly good because of one thing.And for a lot of them that one thing is becoming less and less relevant in today’s game.

How many defenses in the league would Williams, Mosley, Suggs, or Smith be their best player? Barely any. 49ers. Packers, POSSIBLY. Bears, I’d probably take Akiem Hicks. Patriots probably. Jets probably. Bills maybe, don’t know for sure how good White is.Colts yes. Browns yes. That’s really it.

Weddle is old. Weddle is fragile. Weddle can't tackle. And yet Dean Pees still played him in the box a ton. Also, surprise, Weddle also led the team in turnovers this year. When he's relegated to a true FS role, he produces at a high level. When he's asked to play in the box and make tackles, he doesn't. Again, this is an example of Pees hindering the talent we have.

Mosley is a good player who can't cover, because he put on weight. I don't know who told him to do that, but they should've been fired immediately because it completely ruined any athleticism he had at one point. He was on his way to looking like a great coverage linebacker and thanks to putting on weight, he looked like Ray Lewis in his 17th year in the NFL this year trying to run guys down.

Williams and Pierce are still great players, regardless. Especially Williams. 

Humphrey finished the year with a 56 or something QBR when throwing his way, along with a couple of turnovers and a few contributions to turnovers (tipped balls). He also didn't allow any TD's. He's only going to get better.

Jefferson was a complete freaking bust last year, but again that's scheme related. By now I hope you've seen how good of a player he was in Arizona in that scheme. It's not a surprise that he came here and under Pees' idiotic scheme that makes him play as a single high or double high safety a lot of the time he struggled to do anything productive. He needs to be down around the LoS to make an impact. Another great example of scheme hindering players.

It's been noted for years that our defense lacks players who can play in space. However, what did Ozzie do this year? He drafted Bowser, Humphrey, and Tim Williams. Those guys are all VERY athletic guys. What does Dean Pees do? Benches Bowser and Williams and plays Humphrey on a snap count. Again, this is scheme related. We have guys who can play in space and be athletic, we just don't use them. Instead, we used Matthew Judon as a coverage linebacker while rushing 3 DT's and Suggs most of the time. We need ILB's who can move in space, so we get Onwuasor who is quick and fast and then CJ Mosley bulks up and loses all his athleticism. HUGE mistake.

I'm just saying our talent level looks depleted because of the scheme, not because we actually don't have any.

[M.10.E]

19 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Weddle is old fragile and can’t tackle. Mosley is a good player who can’t cover. Suggs is still a good pass rusher. Not dominant or anything. Williams and Pierce, run defenders. Humphrey looks promising. But the last time we saw him he was making LaFell look like an All-Pro. Jefferson, another run defender who was like the 5th or 6th best player on his last defense. Onwuasor And Davis suck.

We have a bunch of good players who are mostly good because of one thing.And for a lot of them that one thing is becoming less and less relevant in today’s game.

How many defenses in the league would Williams, Mosley, Suggs, or Smith be their best player? Barely any. 49ers. Packers, POSSIBLY. Bears, I’d probably take Akiem Hicks. Patriots probably. Jets probably. Bills maybe, don’t know for sure how good White is.Colts yes. Browns yes. That’s really it.

I love you. PREACH.

Pierce is a worse version of Williams and neither can rush the passer to save their lives. Matt Judon, king of the coverage sacks. Mosley can't cover a crossing route at all. Our other DL are JaGs. Jefferson had exactly ONE good year in his career.

What's more likely, our coordinator hindered every single player on our defense or our players aren't as good as people on this forum think? Hmmmmm.

Jimmy Smith seemed to overcome our scheme issues. As did Suggs. Why couldn't other players? Cause they aren't that good. 

We need to stop making excuses for our players and hold THEM accountable for their poor play.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by M.10.E

[coordinator0]

Jimmy Smith and Terrell Suggs are elite. If you have to be that good to overcome the issues within a scheme, then it's a terrible scheme. A scheme is supposed to maximize the talent you have. Not force the talent to bend and make concessions to actually play in it.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 hours ago, M.10.E said:

I love you. PREACH.

Pierce is a worse version of Williams and neither can rush the passer to save their lives. Matt Judon, king of the coverage sacks. Mosley can't cover a crossing route at all. Our other DL are JaGs. Jefferson had exactly ONE good year in his career.

What's more likely, our coordinator hindered every single player on our defense or our players aren't as good as people on this forum think? Hmmmmm.

Jimmy Smith seemed to overcome our scheme issues. As did Suggs. Why couldn't other players? Cause they aren't that good. 

We need to stop making excuses for our players and hold THEM accountable for their poor play.

I disagree with this here, and the counter example would be the Seahawks. They've mastered how to take guys who do a certain thing at a high level, and maximize that one thing. Richard Sherman wasn't an elite prospect coming out of college, but he was physical and was a perfect fit as a cover 3 CB and they maximized that potential.

They did the same thing with guys like Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Bobby Wagner, KJ Wright, Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Byron Maxwell, Brandon Browner, etc. etc. etc.

You know what would happen if you placed all of those guys into Dean Pees' scheme? You'd be saying the same thing you're saying here, because they wouldn't be playing in a system designed to maximize their talent and maximize what they do well. Jimmy Smith has always been a press man CB, so what does Dean Pees do with him? Plays him off the ball 7 yards in zone coverage, and he struggled in that scheme until we finally started allowing him to press and get his hands on WR's. Matt Elam was a box safety at Florida and was great, what does Dean pees do? Plays him as a FS in deep zones. Darian Stewart, Kendrick Lewis, and Tony Jefferson are all the same damn story, too. Matthew Judon led the NCAA in sacks, so what does Dean Pees do? Plays him primarily as a run stuffer and coverage OLB. CJ Mosley comes out of college as an athletic freak of a LB known for his ability to cover. What does Dean Pees do? Bulks him up to play the run better. Kamalei Correa comes here as a pass rusher, what does Dean Pees do? Converts him to ILB. 

The list goes on and on and on...No team is going to have 11 All-Pros on the roster based on their pure talent alone. The scheme they play in has to maximize what everyone does in order to boost the talent. This defensive roster has the potential to have 5 All-Pros (Williams, Mosley, Suggs, Smith, Weddle) right now. The only thing holding them back from that happening is a scheme not maximizing their potential.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Darth Pees

[coordinator0]

Elam may have played more snaps at slot cornerback than safety. His rookie year might have tipped the favor to the latter, but afterwards I would bet heavily on the former.

[DontTazeMeBro]

Richard Sherman wasn’t an elite prospect because he didn’t play cornerback until his junior year. Earl Thomas is possibly the 3rd best safety of the last quarter century. He’d be great in any scheme. As would Wagner and Bennett.  

And God forbid we expect pass rushers to defend the run on run plays and strong safeties to cover on pass plays

Edited January 31, 2018 by DontTazeMeBro

[M.10.E]

You think Dean Pees ALONE did all this?

Correa is trash. Elam is trash. We going to use this excuse for when Kaufisi and Wormley never do anything? Or are we going to actually put some blame on the FO for not drafting well enough.

1 hour ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Richard Sherman wasn’t an elite prospect because he didn’t play cornerback until his junior year. Earl Thomas is possibly the 3rd best safety of the last quarter century. He’d be great in any scheme. As would Wagner and Bennett.  

And God forbid we expect pass rushers to defend the run on run plays and strong safeties to cover on pass plays

And this.

Who has left this team in the last five years and become a better player than they were when they were here?

Darian Stewart - went to play with TJ Ward and the best CB duo in the NFL at the time.

That's about all I can think of.

Edited January 31, 2018 by M.10.E

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

12 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

Richard Sherman wasn’t an elite prospect because he didn’t play cornerback until his junior year. Earl Thomas is possibly the 3rd best safety of the last quarter century. He’d be great in any scheme. As would Wagner and Bennett.  

And God forbid we expect pass rushers to defend the run on run plays and strong safeties to cover on pass plays

And there's a reason why Sherman dropped so low in the draft, yet Seattle almost instantly turned him into an All-Pro. Imagine that. Earl Thomas isn't even the 3rd best safety in the NFL right now (Harrison Smith, Eric Berry, Kam Chancellor) let alone the last quarter century. He's a cover 3 FS with good range and can tackle, but has bad ball instincts and is largely invisible most games.

Michael Bennett wasn't this good in Tampa Bay, and Bobby Wagner also fell to the 3rd round for a reason, yet instantly became the 2nd best ILB in the NFL and was a DPOY candidate this year. 

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the pass rushers - we drafted Bowser and Williams to rush the passer, but benched them (despite Bowser being productive when actually receiving playing time), and we largely used Judon to drop into coverage despite that not being his forte at all.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

11 hours ago, M.10.E said:

You think Dean Pees ALONE did all this?

Correa is trash. Elam is trash. We going to use this excuse for when Kaufisi and Wormley never do anything? Or are we going to actually put some blame on the FO for not drafting well enough.

And this.

Who has left this team in the last five years and become a better player than they were when they were here?

Darian Stewart - went to play with TJ Ward and the best CB duo in the NFL at the time.

That's about all I can think of.

No, I think it's combination of poor draft strategy and a failure from Pees to develop players and put them in the best scheme/position to succeed. Correa is trash at ILB, but have you seen him play OLB? Elam was trash at slot CB and FS, but remember him flashing at SS when we played him in the box until he got hurt? Kaufusi and Wormley are horrible draft picks (as of now).

I've been very vocal about there being a lack of communication between the coaches and FO regarding defensive players and how we should be drafting. Ozzie is clearly taking BPA regardless of scheme fit, and it's not working at all because Pees is/was incapable of adjusting his scheme to match the players in it.

Who here that's notable has left this team in the past 5 years that's not Elvis Dumervil or Pernell McPhee? Dumervil left because of age, and McPhee is still a good player for Chicago, just battling injuries. Guys like Darian Stewart, Terrence Brooks, and Rashaan Melvin all improved after leaving here. Even Josh Bynes is now a solid starter for the Lions. Other than that, I can't recall any notable players leaving our defense unless they retired.

[berlin calling]

Jernigan. if you follow the mindset of some guys here he was probably just bad, yet the Eagles instantly gave him an extension.

god forbid you adapt your scheme to the strength of your guys, heck who needs interior pass rush anyway, go run-stuffing all day!

[DreamKid]

17 hours ago, M.10.E said:

What's more likely, our coordinator hindered every single player on our defense or our players aren't as good as people on this forum think? Hmmmmm.

This forum dogs players on our defense more than fans of other teams do. We're pretty honest round here.

17 hours ago, M.10.E said:

Pierce is a worse version of Williams and neither can rush the passer to save their lives.

If Pierce and Williams could also rush the passer then they'd be two of the best defensive players in the league.....

Anquan couldn't stretch a defense with his speed, doesn't mean his skill set wasn't valuable or a worthwhile commodity for a franchise looking to win games.

You take what value your players do offer and try to maximize it. The only contention being made is that Pees didn't maximize the strengths/value of some of our players.

I think Weddle, Jefferson, Judon and Mosley are all overrated and have clear weakness that are detrimental to the team, but that doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about how their skill sets were deployed, and if they were put in the best position to succeed considering their weaknesses.

Saying Weddle being around the LOS isn't putting him in the best position to succeed, isn't the same as saying "Weddle is actually a good player not a bad player".

Darth, I'm with you man but Elam and Correa were just trash picks. I don't think Pees did them any favors but they just shouldn't have been with our team to begin with. The jury is still out on Wormley and Kaufusi, but the trial is boring af. 

I'm glad we don't have to(hopefully) worry about all this ish anymore, simple man Pees is off with the Titans and hopefully Steve makes it clear to the new coaches on defense that it's time to progress and be proactive or be apart of a mass extinction.