Prime JJ Watt or Aaron Donald?

[ET80]

3 hours ago, El ramster said:

One of these days you're going to say Donald is better and i'm going to enjoy it.

Don't hold your breath. 

[showtime]

Watt probably has the best season, but Donald will have the better career.

[FrantikRam]

On 5/7/2019 at 10:52 AM, Yin-Yang said:

Someone go call Darrelle Revis, Joe Thomas, Calvin Johnson, Barry Sanders, Adrian Peterson, Tony Gonzalez, and Larry Fitzgerald and tell them that they weren’t transcendent players.

 

You kind of proved my point with some of those examples:

Fitz - played in a Super Bowl (and played good enough to win) - also played on another contender years later

Revis - although I'd never view the Jets he played with as contenders, they did make two AFCCG

Peterson - had at least one year where they were Super Bowl contenders

Tony G - went 13-3 and even though they didn't win a playoff game, they at least had contender status for that year

 

Examples of Barry are more accurate, although I would argue he had far worse teams than Watt. I would not consider Joe Thomas to be in that conversation. My statement was probably dramatic, but I've rarely heard of a transcendent player who didn't have at least one year of being a Super Bowl threat. Barry being the obvious exception.

I'm sure ultimately I'm wrong - there are smarter people than me arguing on Watt's behalf - I just think it's strange for them to have been so mediocre. A commentary on the Texans inability to put a team around him I suppose.

[Soko]

2 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

You kind of proved my point with some of those examples:

Fitz - played in a Super Bowl (and played good enough to win) - also played on another contender years later

Revis - although I'd never view the Jets he played with as contenders, they did make two AFCCG

Peterson - had at least one year where they were Super Bowl contenders

Tony G - went 13-3 and even though they didn't win a playoff game, they at least had contender status for that year

 

Examples of Barry are more accurate, although I would argue he had far worse teams than Watt. I would not consider Joe Thomas to be in that conversation. My statement was probably dramatic, but I've rarely heard of a transcendent player who didn't have at least one year of being a Super Bowl threat. Barry being the obvious exception.

I'm sure ultimately I'm wrong - there are smarter people than me arguing on Watt's behalf - I just think it's strange for them to have been so mediocre. A commentary on the Texans inability to put a team around him I suppose.

Yeah, but that’d be moving the goal posts. You said “year in and year out contenders”, which those players really weren’t. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Randy Moss, sure. But all of the players above were out of the playoffs more often than they were in. 

[ET80]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

Tony G - went 13-3 and even though they didn't win a playoff game, they at least had contender status for that year

If this is a qualified entry, then we can add Watt into this discussion as well - Watt's "breakout" year in 2012 was a 12-4 season for the Texans, which culminated with a playoff win vs the Bengals, only the 2nd playoff berth/win in franchise history.

That's contender status - Watt can only do so much, but it looks like he did more than Gonzo that year. The Chiefs had a better regular season record by one game, the Texans had a better playoff record by one game - so I'd call that a wash.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

Examples of Barry are more accurate, although I would argue he had far worse teams than Watt. I would not consider Joe Thomas to be in that conversation. My statement was probably dramatic, but I've rarely heard of a transcendent player who didn't have at least one year of being a Super Bowl threat. Barry being the obvious exception.

Calvin Johnson?

[ET80]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

I just think it's strange for them to have been so mediocre

Ultimately, I'm struggling a lot with this - the Texans had no playoff games in franchise history prior to Watt. While there was a lot of improvement across the Texans organization with other players and key DCs, the Texans rattled off three division titles in the five "healthy" Watt years. These weren't "backdoor" playoff berths, they won the division in those years. The two years they didn't win were the 2013 season where the name "Matt Schaub" was synonymous with "Pick Six" and the 2014 season that was a 9-7 season with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Ryan Mallet, Tom Savage and Case Keenum as the starting QBs.

The Texans weren't the Seahawks or Patriots, but they were in the hunt as much as anyone not named the Seahawks or Patriots. 

[MWil23]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

I would not consider Joe Thomas to be in that conversation. My statement was probably dramatic, but I've rarely heard of a transcendent player who didn't have at least one year of being a Super Bowl threat. Barry being the obvious exception.

Aside from the fact that you're wrong about JT, there are some definite exceptions:

Deacon Jones

Kellen Winslow

Butkus

Then there is just the RB CATEGORY:

Earl Campbell

Dickerson

LT

OJ

Gale Sayers (if you consider him transcendent) 

Not to mention guys we will disagree on, like Tony G and Cris Carter

[FrantikRam]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Yeah, but that’d be moving the goal posts. You said “year in and year out contenders”, which those players really weren’t. Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Randy Moss, sure. But all of the players above were out of the playoffs more often than they were in. 

 

What I actually said was "year in and year out NOT a contender" - it would be incredibly rare for any player to consistently be apart of a Super Bowl contending team.

The thing I struggle with about Watt is that he's a transcendent talent who has never once been an actual threat to win a Super Bowl.

I'm most likely wrong anyways - but I just think it's strange.

[FrantikRam]

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Aside from the fact that you're wrong about JT, there are some definite exceptions:

Deacon Jones

Kellen Winslow

Butkus

Then there is just the RB CATEGORY:

Earl Campbell

Dickerson

LT

OJ

Gale Sayers (if you consider him transcendent) 

Not to mention guys we will disagree on, like Tony G and Cris Carter

 

I like Joe Thomas, but I don't consider him transcendent. There were LTs just before or around his time that were as good or better.

Dickerson was apart of some contending Rams teams. Same for Winslow. LT led the Chargers to the best record in the NFL.

My definition of Super Bowl contender is probably different than most - with the Texans, when the playoffs start, I know with 100% certainty that the Texans won't even be in the AFCCG. To me that nullifies them as a contender despite the fact that they made the playoffs multiple times.

I'm fine with JJ Watt being a transcendent player, it's just odd how little success they've had, and in a weak division.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

My definition of Super Bowl contender is probably different than most - with the Texans, when the playoffs start, I know with 100% certainty that the Texans won't even be in the AFCCG. To me that nullifies them as a contender despite the fact that they made the playoffs multiple times.

Oh, c'mon now - we all know it's a QB driven league in this respect. You're going as far as your QB takes you, and the Texans haven't had a QB until now. You really think any team is going to a SB with Matt Schaub or Ryan Fitzpatrick? Because (prior to the 24 games with Deshaun Watson at the helm) those are the benchmarks, the best the Texans had to offer in that respect. Who knows what the next 3-4 years has in store, but the Texans absolutely have a QB capable of making a run now.

(If anyone should get the "your only as good as your QB is that day," debate, it's a Donald fan. Donald and his defense held Tom Brady to 13 points. Did it really matter at the end?)

While we're here - let's look at the other side of this debate if these are your standards. How has Aaron Donald met these qualifications? You're making it seem as if Donald has some rich playoff history, but the reality is his "success" is the last two seasons (which includes a busted 1st round bye in 2017). The years before are mired in Jeff Fisher 8-8 purgatory, so it's not like there is some huge gap in playoff experience and "contender" status.

[FrantikRam]

On 12/6/2018 at 10:42 AM, ET80 said:

No. Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Bob Lily, Mean Joe Greene are your starters on the DL.

 

Deacon Jones would be a starting DE on that team. Best DE of all time and had sacks been counted, he would still have the most all time.

[ET80]

4 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Deacon Jones would be a starting DE on that team. Best DE of all time and had sacks been counted, he would still have the most all time.

I never saw Deacon play, so I can't really comment. Granted, I've seen very little of Lily and Greene, so... sure, I'll buy in on this.

[FrantikRam]

38 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Oh, c'mon now - we all know it's a QB driven league in this respect. You're going as far as your QB takes you, and the Texans haven't had a QB until now. You really think any team is going to a SB with Matt Schaub or Ryan Fitzpatrick? Because (prior to the 24 games with Deshaun Watson at the helm) those are the benchmarks, the best the Texans had to offer in that respect. Who knows what the next 3-4 years has in store, but the Texans absolutely have a QB capable of making a run now.

(If anyone should get the "your only as good as your QB is that day," debate, it's a Donald fan. Donald and his defense held Tom Brady to 13 points. Did it really matter at the end?)

While we're here - let's look at the other side of this debate if these are your standards. How has Aaron Donald met these qualifications? You're making it seem as if Donald has some rich playoff history, but the reality is his "success" is the last two seasons (which includes a busted 1st round bye in 2017). The years before are mired in Jeff Fisher 8-8 purgatory, so it's not like there is some huge gap in playoff experience and "contender" status.

 

I mean, this is all subjective, right? I can't really disagree with anything you're saying. FWIW, I didn't think the Rams should have paid Donald that money before last year. I'm still not sure we should have - the positional value is sketchy for me personally. You pointed out some of the Rams defensive rankings. One of the years Watt got hurt, the Texans still had a top 10 D in quite a few categories. One of the reasons football is so fascinating is because of how difficult it is to hone in on one players impact. I would take Donald because I think he's better than Watt was in his prime, but I can't really convince anyone of that.

To the QB point - would you trade Watson for Goff? I'm thinking not. Cooks or Woods or Kupp for Hopkins? No way. Clowney for Fowler? Matthieu for Joyner (last year)? Any CB on your team for Peters?

Don't get me wrong - I think the Rams roster is significantly better than the Texans - and I get that the OL was your undoing - but the Texans had serious talent last year and underachieved IMO. That more than anything summarizes how I feel about Watt.

[FrantikRam]

45 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Oh, c'mon now - we all know it's a QB driven league in this respect. You're going as far as your QB takes you, and the Texans haven't had a QB until now. You really think any team is going to a SB with Matt Schaub or Ryan Fitzpatrick? Because (prior to the 24 games with Deshaun Watson at the helm) those are the benchmarks, the best the Texans had to offer in that respect. Who knows what the next 3-4 years has in store, but the Texans absolutely have a QB capable of making a run now.

(If anyone should get the "your only as good as your QB is that day," debate, it's a Donald fan. Donald and his defense held Tom Brady to 13 points. Did it really matter at the end?)

While we're here - let's look at the other side of this debate if these are your standards. How has Aaron Donald met these qualifications? You're making it seem as if Donald has some rich playoff history, but the reality is his "success" is the last two seasons (which includes a busted 1st round bye in 2017). The years before are mired in Jeff Fisher 8-8 purgatory, so it's not like there is some huge gap in playoff experience and "contender" status.

 

I'll also take this opportunity to say that as I've read the arguments throughout today, I agree that Watt's prime is better than Donald right now. After thinking about it, you convinced me - but it's not out of the question that Donald passes him.