The greatness of Saquon Barkley

[lancerman]

6 hours ago, Forge said:

Barkley averages half a yard more per carry, half a yard more per reception, has caught 10 more passes, and has more touchdowns than Zeke.  I don't think there's an argument to be made for surrounding talent either. But Zeke is a tier ahead? How does that work? There is absolutely  no reasonable argument for that. Sorry, that's absurd. 

Gurley is having the better season, but some of that can be attributed to volume (give Barkley the extra 30 carries at his typical 5 yards per carry clip, and he has more rushing yards than Gurley) and surrounding cast / better offense (the Rams having scored nearly 150 more points than the Giants through 14 games). Barkley averages more yards per carry, has quite a few more receptions (though Gurley leads in yards per reception). Yeah, Gurley is having the better season (it'd be hard to match the touchdown total for Barkley without being on a really good offense), but some of that is attributable to the team surrounding him and has nothing to do with Gurley himself, and even though I'd give him the nod still, it's certainly not "miles ahead". 

The Rams are a top 3 team in the league, they have an outstanding offense and Gurley is the key piece of that. He’s better in yards, tds, and yards per game. 

Zeke is better in yards and he is what makes the Cowboys offense run as well. When he gets stopped they don’t win. 

Both players have stats better than Barkley and both are key components of playoff worthy offenses

You’re using the team to diminish those two. But Barkley benefits from having no real passing game so he gets featured more than he would otherwise. 

[lancerman]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

Pre-season predictions and player evaluations ain't the same.  One is trying to predict the future (which is hit or miss for even the most astute football minds).  Remember Tony Romo had the Packers and Jags as his favorites to make the Super Bowl before the season.  Does he not know football?

Player evaluations are different.  I'm evaluating what has already happened.  I'm not trying to forecast the future.  And based on what I've already seen, Saquon Barkley is EASILY the best RB in the NFL.  You can disagree but this is simply my opinion.  I'm not taking any other RB ahead of him.  PERIOD.

See the problem is you are trying to hide behind them merely being predictions when at the time you were making these adamant big and bold declarations as if there was no doubt Garrett was going to be the MVP or the Packers the best team. And then you went on to continue to argue them.

Its not like Tony Romo making pre season picks.   And if that’s what you really were doing.... idk I’d probably reevaluate the way you did it.

As far as Barkley, he is not better than Gurley. There is no real way you can look at all the available data on both players and say he’s better than Gurley. So again it’s you making a big bold statement without much to back it up. And him being a top 2 player in the league is comical 

[lancerman]

1 hour ago, Kip Smithers said:

Just Capable? Nah. 

If im picking you at 2, you better be great. The very least a solidified top 10 QB. 

If any of the QBs end up great and we end up settling for mediocre or solid then yeah.  Except the Giants made that pick because THEY think that they didn’t believe they were getting a bonafide QB. Bare in mind that the Giants had Mayfield clear and cut above the rest. 

The Giants have some nice players but we still got a tonne of holes. We’re not a good run defending team. We struggle to consistently generate pressure and our secondary is very thin. Every team has talent.

If the Giants ONLY had a capable QB they’d be in the playoffs right now. Eli was absolute crap most of the year, the couple of times he played anything resembling a good game, they won and beat some decent teams. The QB play was the difference maker. 

Btw there isn’t going to be a prospect as capable as Darnold where the Giants will pick next year. They’ll have to find a diamond in the rough or tank for the 2020 draft. Oh and next year will be another wasted season if they roll with Eli. So that’s two of Barkley’s rookie years 

[eagles18]

3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The Rams are a top 3 team in the league, they have an outstanding offense and Gurley is the key piece of that. He’s better in yards, tds, and yards per game. 

Zeke is better in yards and he is what makes the Cowboys offense run as well. When he gets stopped they don’t win. 

Both players have stats better than Barkley and both are key components of playoff worthy offenses

You’re using the team to diminish those two. But Barkley benefits from having no real passing game so he gets featured more than he would otherwise. 

Not sure where you're coming up with your #fakenews but here are the real facts:

Zeke - 286 rushes for 1349 yards and 6 TD 4.7 YPA

Gurley - 256 rushes for 1251 yards and 17 TD 4.9 YPA

Barkley - 223 rushes for 1155 yards and 9 TD 5.2 YPA

Saquon Barkley is getting less attempts and averaging more YPA than both gurley and zeke..Zeke has 63 more rushing attempts than Barkley and only 194 yards more gained and has scored less.. Barkley has been better than Zeke this year.

SB is a more effective receiver than than both Gurley and Elliott (13th ranked in yards and 4TD) Barkely is the better all around RB and its not even close. 

[tyler735]

If Barkley and Gurley had to switch teams. I feel this would be a landslide in Barkley's favor. Gurley is unquestionably a great RB, but his OL has been beastly. Gurley is a very direct runner that when he gets a crease utilizes his great size/speed combo to get yards in a hurry, which works great with his current system where he consistently gets holes to run through. He has never struck me as much of a creative runner though, he is kind of "boring" in that regard. He just doesn't seem to have many runs where he completely creates something out of nothing making several tacklers miss. Barkley on the other hand has created something out of nothing more than any RB in the league this year. He has a similar size/speed combo to Gurley to capitalize on hitting the hole when it's there, but is a much more creative runner imo. Barkley has made some absolutely insane cuts/moves in the open field this year that no other RB in the league could make at his size. Basically, I feel if you put Gurley in Barkley's current situation, we see Gurley closely resemble his 2nd season with the Rams where he wasn't quite the player we view him as now. If we put Barkley on the Rams, we are looking at a guy that is likely on the short list for league MVP as a rookie. 

 

 

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, eagles18 said:

Not sure where you're coming up with your #fakenews but here are the real facts:

Zeke - 286 rushes for 1349 yards and 6 TD 4.7 YPA

Gurley - 256 rushes for 1251 yards and 17 TD 4.9 YPA

Barkley - 223 rushes for 1155 yards and 9 TD 5.2 YPA

Saquon Barkley is getting less attempts and averaging more YPA than both gurley and zeke..Zeke has 63 more rushing attempts than Barkley and only 194 yards more gained and has scored less.. Barkley has been better than Zeke this year.

SB is a more effective receiver than than both Gurley and Elliott (13th ranked in yards and 4TD) Barkely is the better all around RB and its not even close. 

I like how you use the term Fake News but none of your data was contradictory to what I said. You failed to show 

1. That Gurley isn’t ahead of Barkey in yards, touchdowns and touchdowns per game. 

2. That Zeke wasn’t ahead of Barkley in yards and yards per game 

You didn’t disprove any of my data and you’re entire argument hinges on one stat. So compelling. 

Gurkey is more productive and he’s the featured back and most important player on one of the best teams this year. Barkley is less productive and he’s not making a difference in his team winning despite having a better WR than both of them to draw the defense 

[eagles18]

16 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I like how you use the term Fake News but none of your data was contradictory to what I said. You failed to show 

1. That Gurley isn’t ahead of Barkey in yards, touchdowns and touchdowns per game. 

2. That Zeke wasn’t ahead of Barkley in yards and yards per game 

You didn’t disprove any of my data and you’re entire argument hinges on one stat. So compelling. 

Gurkey is more productive and he’s the featured back and most important player on one of the best teams this year. Barkley is less productive and he’s not making a difference in his team winning despite having a better WR than both of them to draw the defense 

that one stat is the most compelling.. he has less rushes and is more effective..  gurley is not a better back than Barkley... if you don't believe the stats.. do the eye test... Barkley is ahead of them AND HES A ROOKIE with one of the worst offensive lines in the league and one of the worst QBs in the league. As much as i hate Dak, hes played better than Eli. 

Gurley plays on a high powered offense with a top ten QB whos able to open the field for Gurley. Defenses can't contain everyone. 

Of course Zeke gets more yards.. he rushes more. averaging 20 a game. 

out the the three. Barkley who creates plays for himself at a much higher rate. 

[fluhartz]

On 12/15/2018 at 6:45 PM, VanS said:

Great comp.

I feel the exact same way.  Saquon is the Calvin Johnson of RBs. 

and he will probably win about as many games (or less) as calvin did if they don't get a QB

[lancerman]

7 minutes ago, eagles18 said:

that one stat is the most compelling.. he has less rushes and is more effective..  gurley is not a better back than Barkley... if you don't believe the stats.. do the eye test... Barkley is ahead of them AND HES A ROOKIE with one of the worst offensive lines in the league and one of the worst QBs in the league. As much as i hate Dak, hes played better than Eli. 

I like how the only stat you can use to support your argument is all of a sudden “the most compelling”. 

Especially when you are using efficiency on a position where their entire legacies are based off production. 

I do believe the stats. Most stats stats support Gurley. You’re overinflating the one stat that doesn’t. 

And yeah, eye test, Gurley is better. If Mahomes and Brees weren’t having killer seasons then Gurley would be in the MVP race. 

[eagles18]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

I like how the only stat you can use to support your argument is all of a sudden “the most compelling”. 

Especially when you are using efficiency on a position where their entire legacies are based off production. 

I do believe the stats. Most stats stats support Gurley. You’re overinflating the one stat that doesn’t. 

And yeah, eye test, Gurley is better. If Mahomes and Brees weren’t having killer seasons then Gurley would be in the MVP race. 

the only stat that supports gurley is TDs .. congrats.. that tends to happen when you play with top offenses. 

Quote

If Mahomes and Brees weren’t having killer seasons then Gurley would be in the MVP race. 

 

[Chiefer]

8 hours ago, lancerman said:

Not remotely the same situation. 

In 2015 there were two clear frontrunners at QB. Mariota and Winston. They were chosen with pick 1 and pick 2. The Rams had pick 10. The next QB drafted was Garrett Grayson by the Saints with pick 75. They weren't drafting him to be a starter. They didn't have an option at QB in that draft. It would have been absolutely foolish to waste a high pick on somebody that nobody believed in.

In 2016, they had the first pick and took the guy who was viewed as the best QB in the draft . 

------

The Giants in 2018 had the number 2 pick. 4 QB's were deemed worthy to go in the top 10. They could have had any of Darnold, Allen, or Rosen. Then Jackson was picked at the end of the round. All 4 QB's that the Giants passed up on in the first round are starting this year and are being groomed as the franchise face of the franchise. This was the richest QB class since 2004 and the Giants weren't facing the prospects of reaching on a guy. The very next pick was the QB viewed as most NFL ready. A couple picks later was the QB with the best arm, and a few picks after that was the guy considered the smartest QB in the draft. 

You're comparing situations that aren't comparable. And you're overselling the 2019 and 2020 draft class. There might be guys who are viewed as good QB's but you aren't going to see that many QB's that are top 10 worthy. It's very likely it will end up like previous drafts where the only worthy QB's go in the top 3 and then the next guy is a reach before the Giants can get them (basically what happened to the Rams in 2015). The Giants had a pretty obvious shot at a franchise QB. Hell, they could have traded up and got Jackson. You aren't going to see a draft class like this for awhile

It really doesn't matter how good Barkley is. His position isn't valuable, he's been playing great all year and the team was still losing, so he isn't the difference maker, and running backs have an incredibly short shelf life in this league

Yeah but what if all those QBs bust?

[lancerman]

8 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Yeah but what if all those QBs bust?

If all those QB’s bust, the Giants will still be looking for a QB. The likelyhood that 4 out of 5 turn into busts is low. 

[lancerman]

21 minutes ago, eagles18 said:

the only stat that supports gurley is TDs .. congrats.. that tends to happen when you play with top offenses. 

 

Well and yards, and yards per game. So only ALL the stats that measure production support Gurley 

But way to talk about fake news

[ET80]

14 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

Yeah but what if all those QBs bust?

That's what's so frustrating with this discussion. There is a curve these QBs are graded on, as if progression is guaranteed. Each of the three QBs have shown flashes - but so did guys like Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Christian Ponder, EJ Manual, etc. 

Progression to "average QB" isn't guaranteed. 

There's no need to grade Saquan on a curve, he's already at "elite" status in comparison to his peers.

[eagles18]

12 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Well and yards, and yards per game. So only ALL the stats that measure production support Gurley 

But way to talk about fake news

watch the video.