Raiders Defense

[NYRaider]

21 minutes ago, Dessie said:

His ranking was based on ‘17 year like you are doing now. Those coverage stats came from PFF the same source you are using lol. 

Why would the ranking of the best 2019 free agents be based on 2017?

[Dessie]

5 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Why would the ranking of the best 2019 free agents be based on 2017?

Same reason you keep referring to 2017 when you say Joyner is ‘elite’.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Dessie

[Bitty 2.0]

12 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Same for Carr. He had one above average year in 2016 and has been below average in 5/6 seasons. 

You do know Carr was in the PRO Bowl 2015, 2016 and 2017.

[MrOaktown_56]

Raiders defense thread guys. Take this Carr talk to the Carr thread pls.

[NYRaider]

4 hours ago, Dessie said:

Same reason you keep referring to 2017 when you say Joyner is ‘elite’.

Okie dokie buddy. Still strange you're attacking Joyner so much, lol. 

[oakdb36]

6 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Okie dokie buddy. Still strange you're attacking Joyner so much, lol. 

How is it strange? He's getting paid 10M+/Y and was bad last year.

[NYRaider]

37 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

How is it strange? He's getting paid 10M+/Y and was bad last year.

He's attacking me for saying Joyner is an above average player. He was bad last year. But overall he has been above average throughout his career. 

[Dessie]

8 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Okie dokie buddy. Still strange you're attacking Joyner so much, lol. 

No problem not as strange as your man crush on Joyner though lol. Let’s hope he can get back to at least average this year.

[Darbsk]

On 22/04/2020 at 5:33 AM, MrOaktown_56 said:

I mildly disagree. I think SCB is a big need because Joyner could be gone as soon as next year. Plus you can never have too many good corners, especially against a team like KC that likes to spread things out.

I'd say SCB is a bigger need than SAM, where I'm sure Lee can be serviceable. Plus morrow can rotate in for depth at all LB positions. He's a decent depth guy. I agree that pass rusher and RB are underrated needs. As is a developmental WR.

Excellent point, plus the transition to NFL at CB is notoriously hard so an extra year in the system for a rookie slot corner who is not thrown straight into the deep end could be invaluable. As we're talking about Robertson he could also play outside in a pinch and seems like the type of guy that could be a valuable ST player. I dont think good slot CBs are all that easy to come about in FA either but 2 down LBs are.

[jimkelly02]

39 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

I dont think good slot CBs are all that easy to come about in FA either but 2 down LBs are.

You had good points until here.  You don’t think it’s easy to find sCB’s in FA? 
 

still available:

logan Ryan, Darqueze Dennard

And there’s always mid-level rebound guys like jamar Taylor, Aaron Colvin, Ross Cockrell That can be had for near the minimum

Chris harris only got 2y@8.5M, Anthony brown 3y@5M,  Mackenzie Alexander 1y@4.0, kevin Johnson 1@3.5, daryll Roberts 1y@2.0, Nickell Robey-Coleman 1@1.35M, Travis Carrie 1@1M

last year: buster skrine 3y@5.5M, Brian Poole 1y@3.0M, Kevin Johnson 1@3, etc etc

sCB is a position you can fill every year in FA with an top player for 7.5-10M, a mid range guy for 3-6M, a bottom 1/3 starter for 1-2M. 
its probably the cheapest starting position besides SS.  And There’s always guys out there.... it’s supply and demand

now if you think Robertson can be a top tier starter he’s worth a third, since he’d have to prolly sit a year before starting.

im not debating he’s worth a 3rd, especially when we have 3!  What im simply saying is I (and that’s a big “I”, definitely not saying it as if it’s a fact)

but I would use 80/81 to fill bigger needs and then take him at 91 if possible.  Reason being we can afford to go with Joyner and Nixon/Nelson in ‘20 and find someone in FA or the ‘21 draft.  It’s definitely a very nice thing to get him but it’s not URGENT.  
im not debating the players merits in saying I’d take my chances and wait 11’ish more picks.  I don’t think that’s an extreme standpoint when next year at this time no one will remember who went 82 of 93.

[Darbsk]

6 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

You had good points until here.  You don’t think it’s easy to find sCB’s in FA? 
 

still available:

logan Ryan, Darqueze Dennard

And there’s always mid-level rebound guys like jamar Taylor, Aaron Colvin, Ross Cockrell That can be had for near the minimum

Chris harris only got 2y@8.5M, Anthony brown 3y@5M,  Mackenzie Alexander 1y@4.0, kevin Johnson 1@3.5, daryll Roberts 1y@2.0, Nickell Robey-Coleman 1@1.35M, Travis Carrie 1@1M

last year: buster skrine 3y@5.5M, Brian Poole 1y@3.0M, Kevin Johnson 1@3, etc etc

sCB is a position you can fill every year in FA with an top player for 7.5-10M, a mid range guy for 3-6M, a bottom 1/3 starter for 1-2M. 
its probably the cheapest starting position besides SS.  And There’s always guys out there.... it’s supply and demand

now if you think Robertson can be a top tier starter he’s worth a third, since he’d have to prolly sit a year before starting.

im not debating he’s worth a 3rd, especially when we have 3!  What im simply saying is I (and that’s a big “I”, definitely not saying it as if it’s a fact)

but I would use 80/81 to fill bigger needs and then take him at 91 if possible.  Reason being we can afford to go with Joyner and Nixon/Nelson in ‘20 and find someone in FA or the ‘21 draft.  It’s definitely a very nice thing to get him but it’s not URGENT.  
im not debating the players merits in saying I’d take my chances and wait 11’ish more picks.  I don’t think that’s an extreme standpoint when next year at this time no one will remember who went 82 of 93.

Whilst you list a number of players who have been good to very good players in the slot in the past, there is a reason they're cheap.......they are mostly past their best and 1 or 2 year rentals at that. Poole being the exception. I wanted Harris but would be under no illusion he's a 1 year or 2 tear stop gap until we find a genuine long term option. 

Sure we could get a 1 year stop gap every year but what is the chance that every year we hit a good one? Id like to secure the spot for the next 4 or 5 years as I feel its becoming more and more prevalent and only Poole of the names above IMO would be better than Joyner moving forward. Skrine was great 3 or 4 years ago, Logan Ryan was elite a couple years ago, all the other names I see are questionable or downgrades. Its not easy to find good, medium to long term options I perhaps should have said 😀  

[jimkelly02]

11 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Whilst you list a number of players who have been good to very good players in the slot in the past, there is a reason they're cheap.......they are mostly past their best and 1 or 2 year rentals at that. Poole being the exception. I wanted Harris but would be under no illusion he's a 1 year or 2 tear stop gap until we find a genuine long term option. 

Sure we could get a 1 year stop gap every year but what is the chance that every year we hit a good one? Id like to secure the spot for the next 4 or 5 years as I feel its becoming more and more prevalent and only Poole of the names above IMO would be better than Joyner moving forward. Skrine was great 3 or 4 years ago, Logan Ryan was elite a couple years ago, all the other names I see are questionable or downgrades. Its not easy to find good, medium to long term options I perhaps should have said 😀  

I think your highly underrating Logan Ryan.  

I stand by my point you can Always find sCBs and they’re relatively cheap.  Sure your not always gonna get a top 10 guy at the position but you can find good quality starters.  Who cares if Chris Harris is only on a 2 year deal... most players don’t play thru a 4 year deal and you can sign a guy then replace him after 2 years with another.

But it is a position where players are hot for 2 years then slow down.  That’s why it’s advantageous to only commit to these guys short terms.  It’s not just be that’s a trend around the league by GMs.  You don’t see these guys getting long term, expensive deals with dead caps after year 1-2 because of how often they fall off. Colvin and many others went from big pay top end guys to getting minimum deals within a year.  It’s just not a position you want to or need to invest heavily in for the long term.  You can pick from a few pretty good guys, have him 1-2 years and if they fall off you can just as easily find another one.

Again, I’m not arguing against taking him at 91, in fact I like him there.  I just think there will be better options at 80/81 and we should go a different route.  If he’s there at 91 take him.

the argument isn’t to draft him.  The argument is how important a future starter at sCB really is.  We are in a position right now where we have Nixon and Nelson who could be the future.  It’s not a dire situation and I feel other positions should be addressed 11!!! Picks before I’d take him at 91. The only reason I’ve even said all this is I feel like people here have fallen in love with Robertson and gotten tunnel vision.  The draft isn’t a failure if we don’t land him.  Heck we could take Troy Pride too.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by jimkelly02

[NYRaider]

40 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

now if you think Robertson can be a top tier starter he’s worth a third, since he’d have to prolly sit a year before starting.

Robertson projects as a high end slot CB, IMO. He'd be a top 20 pick if he were 3 inches taller. 

[jimkelly02]

5 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Robertson projects as a high end slot CB, IMO. He'd be a top 20 pick if he were 3 inches taller. 

If my D was 3” longer I’d make millions as a porn star lmao

Unfortunately neither one is capable of adding 3” at this point so what’s the point? 
 

No offense that’s like the worst line ever... and I don’t blame YOU... it’s been all over the place.

He’s 5’8 3/8, 187

theres a million guys around the world who didn’t make  in the nfl over 3”.  There’s a dozen 3” to short college QBs ever year.  

 

and he’s he could be a high end sCB.  I’d go as far as to think it’s a “good” chance.

Edited April 23, 2020 by jimkelly02

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

If my D was 3” longer I’d make millions as a porn star lmao

Unfortunately neither one is capable of adding 3” at this point so what’s the point? 

You said you'd only spend a third on him if you think he can be a high end starter. Which I firmly believe he can be. I was just making the point that his only real limitation is his lack of size and that's the reason he'll have to play exclusively in the slot in the NFL. But the tape and production speaks for itself, on the field he's one of the best CB's in the class.