Who's more responsible for the Patriots success, Brady or Belichick?

[Belle7]

Both are important to each other but in reality, Belichick covers the entire team while Brady takes care of the offense. Neither would be as successful as they have been without each other but we will never know how each would be without the other. One season without Brady due to injury is not enough to make a real assessment as the team was already in place and had gone undefeated until the SB the year before.  

[Bolts223]

Belichick. Brady is still the GOAT imo, but the gap between him and the other elite QB’s of his era is minuscule. Belichick is far and away just better than any other HC.

[43M]

 

On 1/24/2019 at 8:56 AM, William Lee said:

Wrong. Belichick defense was never able to stop balanced top offense. 

 

[chrispw1]

As great as Belichick has been, I still feel he largely owes much of his success to Brady as before he became his quarterback he was looking like he would be another Norv Turner or Wade Philips, highly successful and brilliant  coordinator not cut out for head coaching, 41-57 pre Brady but with his success I guess history now says it must have happened in the pre season. Although he gets more credit for winning with Brady because many felt he helped make him great as opposed to if he would have won them with Peyton Manning as most feel he would have been great anywhere.

Also, looking back perhaps other than Brady falling into his lap the best thing for his coaching career was not getting the Patriots job in 1997 after Parcells left. I have read that Bob Kraft got to like him in that 1996 season when he was on the staff but couldn't bring himself to hire him because of his close ties to Parcells. I think perhaps if he had hired him then there is a good possibility he may have seen similar results as they had with Pete Carroll with him being fired after a similar three year downward trajectory and who knows if he ever gets a third shot and in addition to not having Brady he probably needed a few more years to learn from his prior mistakes.

 

 

[lancerman]

They don’t win the Rams Super Bowl without Belichick’s defense or Brady coming up clutch in the final drive. 

Brady was the reason they won the Panthers Super Bowl

Eagles was a mix of both

They won against Seattle because of Brady’s second half comeback. The defense player great situational football in the crucial moments. 

Against Atlanta Brady played out of his mind in the end and the defense made the crucial turnovers to make it possible.

Last night the game was primarily a defensive effort with the offense coming to play at the very end when they needed to put some distance between themselves and the Rams. 

That’s a simplistic take and you could dive way into the details. But the point is that it’s BOTH of them 

[William Lee]

You don't have a dynasty with salary cap if you dont have a QB who can turn short n slow receivers into playmakers.

FYI, on 40 yd dash, Brandin Cooks, 4'33; Julian Edelmen, 4'52.

On how Brady contributes to YAC of his receivers, look at this play : @10:00 ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usw9WiShXEs&t=51s

Brady threw RIGHT WHEN Julian Edelmen changed direction.

1/10th of a second quicker or not means first down or not.

 

[RUGmen]

Both are match made in heaven and their respective GOATs. Both can mask each other’s poor performances. Brady has bailed out the teams poor defenses plenty of times and vice versa.

I really do want to see at least 2 years of Bill post Brady. 

[VigilantZombie]

The clear and Away answer to this question is Bill Belichick you don't have to look any further than last night's Super Bowl. Tom Brady looked at mediocre-at-best for the majority of that game. You can highlight all the wide open Julian Edelman throws that you want but there was nothing spectacular about them. It was Bill Belichick and his ability to manipulate the on-field defensive talent that sealed victory.

[LargeKingCat]

On 1/24/2019 at 8:19 AM, TheKillerNacho said:

I feel like this same exact thread is posted every other week on this forum.

I know  I know  

And fact is, we would not have the Successful QB without the Successful coach. 

I doubt Brady would have succeeded on 31 other teams.  I doubt he would have been drafted or made the invite to any of 31 other teams. 

I think Coach Belichick saw Brady's talent, saw his skill set, saw his abilities and spent  a lot of time coaching him, then designing an offense that works around him.  I think great QBs are made, and Brady was made into one.  

At the same time, I think Brady has a unique skill set that could have translated to another team, given the chance, but we will never know.  He does have talent, he does have abilities, and we will never know if he could have taken the Buffaloes or the Browns to the Super Bowl  upteen times, will we?

 

[William Lee]

1 hour ago, wwhickok said:

The clear and Away answer to this question is Bill Belichick you don't have to look any further than last night's Super Bowl. Tom Brady looked at mediocre-at-best for the majority of that game. You can highlight all the wide open Julian Edelman throws that you want but there was nothing spectacular about them. It was Bill Belichick and his ability to manipulate the on-field defensive talent that sealed victory.

For god sake, they wouldn't have made SB if the offense hadn't played 39 minutes against Chiefs. Who else could have scored 41 or 31 pts without a good deep threats?

They wouldn't have made playoff in 2001 season if Brady's offense didn't score 351 pts in 14 games.

They wouldn't have won SB with other QB before 2005 because no other QB couldn't have score 24+ pts with that squad.

Brady is the GOAT because football is a team sport. Who else can consistently turn average WR into playmakers? who else can turn short n slow WR into playmakers? Who can score 41 and 31 pts in playoff without deep threats? who else can stay on field for 36 min and 39 min so to help his defense? who can get rid of the balls so quickly that makes opponent pass rush completely irrelevant so to help his O-line? ONLY Brady.

There were lot of other good or great defenses in last 17 years, but no QB couldn't have scored 24+ pts without great deep threat WR, that is why Brady is IRREPLACEABLE.

Again, wide open Julian Edelman wouldn't be wide open if Brady had thrown 1/10th or 2/10th of a second later.

look at this play : @10:00 ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usw9WiShXEs&t=51s

What? defenses have to leave some space wide open for Brady to throw to because Belichick is standing across fields?

What? other OC can't design good plays to take advantage of those weak spots because Belichick is not in the room?

[William Lee]

13 hours ago, CKS97 said:

Belichick.

Derek Carr or Kirk Cousins could have made those throws against the Chiefs

LOL, how ignorant. Who told you that the hard part of Brady's play is throwing? 

Funny you use Cousins as an example, here is a play by Cousin that if under Brady, you would have cried "His receiver is wide open".

4th and 3, @6:24, ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNXUwjEO5bY If Kirk Cousin had thrown 1/10th of a second quicker, it would be 1st down.

See the only TD thrown by Brady, the most spectacular throw by Brady in that game? can you tell what is easy about that throw?

[William Lee]

On 2/3/2019 at 3:59 PM, BayRaider said:

The answer here is Bellichick easily. Brady was a sixth round pick, and he would of performed like a sixth round pick in any other system. I do think Brady would be Brady on any team in the league now, but certainly not back then. 

Watch the videos below, you will see how Rodgers IS a system QB; you will know Rodgers IS the reason that Packers struggle, not McCarthy.
from 5:20 to 6:00, ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssVi7Kqs05w (one of the plays is typical Julian Edelmen move)
@10:05, watch WR #33 , ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gSh8IiRBZ4&t=612s (typical James White move)

BTW, look at this table below, you will see Gronk would be a nobody under Rodgers (4.68):

Jordy Nelson 6'3, 4'51 --- Davante Adams 6'1, 4.52 --- Michael Clark 6'6, 4.53--- Equanimeous St. Brown 6'3, 4.48
Jimmy Graham 6'7, 4.56 --- Trevor Davis 6'1, 4.42 --- DeAngelo Yancey 6'2 4.42 --- Marquez Valdes-Scantling 6'4, 4.37
Robert Tonyan 6'5, 4.58 --- Jake Kumerow 6'4, 4.54 --- J'Mon Moore 6'3, 4.6 --- Randall Cobb 5'10, 4.46

Packers are doomed and will be just another 7-10 wins teams unless they find another player like Jordy Nelson. Why? because Rodgers needs two BIG, SPEEDY, AGILE WR with GREAT HANDS to be great.

[VigilantZombie]

50 minutes ago, William Lee said:

For god sake, they wouldn't have made SB if the offense hadn't played 39 minutes against Chiefs. Who else could have scored 41 or 31 pts without a good deep threats?

They wouldn't have made playoff in 2001 season if Brady's offense didn't score 351 pts in 14 games.

They wouldn't have won SB with other QB before 2005 because no other QB couldn't have score 24+ pts with that squad.

Brady is the GOAT because football is a team sport. Who else can consistently turn average WR into playmakers? who else can turn short n slow WR into playmakers? Who can score 41 and 31 pts in playoff without deep threats? who else can stay on field for 36 min and 39 min so to help his defense? who can get rid of the balls so quickly that makes opponent pass rush completely irrelevant so to help his O-line? ONLY Brady.

There were lot of other good or great defenses in last 17 years, but no QB couldn't have scored 24+ pts without great deep threat WR, that is why Brady is IRREPLACEABLE.

Again, wide open Julian Edelman wouldn't be wide open if Brady had thrown 1/10th or 2/10th of a second later.

look at this play : @10:00 ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usw9WiShXEs&t=51s

What? defenses have to leave some space wide open for Brady to throw to because Belichick is standing across fields?

What? other OC can't design good plays to take advantage of those weak spots because Belichick is not in the room?

You seem pretty butthurt that I didn't say Tom Brady. I honestly don't know what the issue is with people being willing to admit they Tom Brady is not the same quarterback he was 10 years ago or even five years ago or even three years ago. Is he still good yes but he isn't the great prolific quarterback that he was just a few seasons back. That is a fact and it can be seen in the way he plays and has played throughout this season at periods of time. That isn't to say he's not capable of greatness because even the worst quarterback can look great at times and Tom Brady is far from the worst. But the fact of the matter is he isn't playing in some Invincible god mode like reality.

Last night the offense struggled to even get points they scored a whopping three points in the first half. More than anything else in last night's game Bill Belichick in the defense won this game for New England. I'm also not discounting what the New England offense was able to do against Kansas City but at the same time maybe we should stop pretending like Kansas city has an elite defense and like that doesn't play A Part.

[William Lee]

7 minutes ago, wwhickok said:

 Now that's not to say what these two people Tom Brady and Bill Belichick have done isn't historical because it is. Having said that I believe that Bill Belichick's ability as a coach to manipulate Talent on the field is the biggest factor in this team's success.

This all comes down to "Who else can consistently turn average WR  or short n slow WR into playmakers? "

(Tyreek Hill, 4'21; Brandin Cooks, 4'33; Julian Edelmen, 4'52)

Is it because Belichick or is it Brady? Whoever is responsible for that is the main reason for Pats became a dynasty.

Please remember, Belichick didn't do "finding gold among stones" until AFTER 2014 season, and he almost NEVER talk to his offense on side line.

[VigilantZombie]

1 minute ago, William Lee said:

This all comes down to "Who else can consistently turn average WR  or short n slow into playmakers? "

Is it because Belichick or is it Brady? Whoever is responsible for that is the main reason for Pats became a dynasty.

Please remember, Belichick didn't do "finding gold among stones" until AFTER 2014 season.

First of all you can put everything in bold all you want but it doesn't make it a fact. Secondly I find it comical that you suggest that all Tom Brady has ever had is average receivers dad that is such a over stated lie. First of all without even thinking about all of the receivers he had he played with Randy Moss and oh by the way they lost that Super Bowl. He has had formidable wide receivers to play with. It's funny how you are so willing to talk about average receivers and then so many people give High Praise to Julian Edelman in Wes Welker in his prime.

Troy Brown Terry Glenn Rob Gronkowski. Now I get that what you are saying is deep threat and Randy Moss was definitely a deep threat but the New England Patriots have never been a strong deep threat team ever necessarily the thing is they kill you with everything else. So I mean let's not pretend like Tom Brady hasn't had at least respectable weapons his entire career because he has. They've had numerous respectable running backs numerous respectable offense of lines Tom Brady has never been hurting for Talent on that offense. That is not to say that he isn't a great quarterback because he is but let's just stop acting like he has been playing with a bunch of Limas Sweeds his whole career.