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johndeere1707

2019 Draft Prospects

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2 hours ago, fluhartz said:

good... hopefully they can get a couple guys

If we go into the season with Bobby Hart as the starting RT (and not due to injury), I'll be disappointed...

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I'm not excited by taking a pint sized understudy to Mayfield. 

 

Go get Haskins or Foles if we're ready to move on from Dalton. Foles would cost about the same as Dalton+Burfict so the money is certainly available. 

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4 hours ago, sparky151 said:

I'm not excited by taking a pint sized understudy to Mayfield. 

 

Go get Haskins or Foles if we're ready to move on from Dalton. Foles would cost about the same as Dalton+Burfict so the money is certainly available. 

Have you watched Murray play?

Why do you think his size inhibits him from being a NFL success?

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Yes, I've seen him play. He doesn't have the muscle mass to soak up a lot of punishment. He probably runs about a 4.4. So do lots of defensive players.

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15 hours ago, sparky151 said:

Yes, I've seen him play. He doesn't have the muscle mass to soak up a lot of punishment. He probably runs about a 4.4. So do lots of defensive players.

I don’t see how his size is an issue to deter you from drafting him. Where is the correlation between size and being prone to injury? There is this stigma around him that I don’t really understand. If someone can show me some evidence of smaller players getting hurt at a higher rate than bigger ones I’ll be open to changing my mind. But I’ve yet to see that. 

Quarterbacks are protected in this league more than ever. I think you think he relies on his legs more than he actually does. He’s an adept pocket passer. The running is a bonus.

 

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1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

I don’t see how his size is an issue to deter you from drafting him. Where is the correlation between size and being prone to injury? There is this stigma around him that I don’t really understand. If someone can show me some evidence of smaller players getting hurt at a higher rate than bigger ones I’ll be open to changing my mind. But I’ve yet to see that. 

Quarterbacks are protected in this league more than ever. I think you think he relies on his legs more than he actually does. He’s an adept pocket passer. The running is a bonus.

 

This isn't really my issue with size.  Yes they get hit.

For years under Paul Alexander, the line simply did not create throwing lanes for the QB.  It was up to the QB to stay back in the pocket and find a receiver.  Teams like the Patriots have their linemen create lanes to the #1 target, so Brady can see guys like Edelman five yards behind the line of scrimmage.

Palmer could see over it, but not with crappy centers.  Why?  The centers would get backed up into his lap.  Same thing for Dalton, who hasn't really ever had quality center play in front of him.  Dalton is 6'2".  Imagine how much harder it is for 5'10" to see open receivers if the line is getting backed up into his lap.  Murray offers the ability to escape and find guys, a la Wilson.  I don't see him as a runner.  More as a guy who uses his legs to buy time to find receivers.  Yes, he ran for a lot of yardage in college, but that won't happen in the NFL, unless he gets extremely happy feet.

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You may have seen the video of the Alabama linebacker tackling Murray 1 handed? He grabbed his jersey with one hand and easily threw Murray down. A full size QB would have broken that arm tackle. 

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19 hours ago, INbengalfan said:

This isn't really my issue with size.  Yes they get hit.

For years under Paul Alexander, the line simply did not create throwing lanes for the QB.  It was up to the QB to stay back in the pocket and find a receiver.  Teams like the Patriots have their linemen create lanes to the #1 target, so Brady can see guys like Edelman five yards behind the line of scrimmage.

Palmer could see over it, but not with crappy centers.  Why?  The centers would get backed up into his lap. 

In theory it makes sense but there doesn't seem to be any correlation to what you're espousing. Height, throwing lanes, and batted balls doesn't seem to have anything to do with each other. Flacco led the league last season at 6'6, and in theory he should be seeing the field as well as anyone. Brock Osweiler (6'7) was also notorious in Houston for having his balls batted at the line.  When watching his Youtube cut-ups I have yet to see his height become an issue.  Also, lets pigeon hole Murray as a prospect reliant on his legs. He's not. He's excellent from the pocket, and prefers to throw first; better than any QB in this class. He's excellent off-script and doesn't immediately panic and bolt when pressured. He remains calm and keeps his eyes downfield. The fact that he can escape pressure and threaten defenses with his legs is an added bonus, and what really makes him a truly special player. If Murray struggled in the pocket and relied only on his movement he would be a Manziel-esque prospect and we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's simply not the case. 

19 hours ago, INbengalfan said:

Dalton is 6'2".  Imagine how much harder it is for 5'10" to see open receivers if the line is getting backed up into his lap.  Murray offers the ability to escape and find guys, a la Wilson.  I don't see him as a runner.  More as a guy who uses his legs to buy time to find receivers.  Yes, he ran for a lot of yardage in college, but that won't happen in the NFL, unless he gets extremely happy feet.

Using our shoddy offensive line as an excuse to draft Murray is silly, because he would make our offensive line look better with his escapability. Drafting someone taller like Haskins or Lock wouldn't make our offense or our offensive line play any better. Especially if it's based on an arbitrary argument like throwing lanes or field vision. If anything Murray's ability to rollout and move should be seen as an asset for a team with questionable line play. Murray's ability to escape pressure is part of his strengths as a prospect. You're right, he does compare similar to Russell Wilson - a shorter, lighter, quicker version, with better arm talent. Wilson's height hasn't hampered his game, why would it be so detrimental to Murray? There are ways to scheme him into moving pockets and open throwing lanes, while still playing him to his strengths and letting him create when necessary.

I don't think people actually watch him play because if you did you would be consciously ignorant to say "he won't succeed in the NFLbecause he can't see over the line". There are so many unbelievably positive aspects to his game and people can only focus on the negative - which from everything I've seen seems entirely irrelevant. As you can tell already, I'm firmly in Murray's camp. If he's there at 11 I hope we take him, and I could probably be convinced to trade up for his services. I think he's going to be a really good player in this league. I think he has the potential to be a top 6 type guy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KentWeyrauch/status/1095358295848730624

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Sam/status/1095381171318542340

 

 

Edited by SmittyBacall

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35 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

You may have seen the video of the Alabama linebacker tackling Murray 1 handed? He grabbed his jersey with one hand and easily threw Murray down. A full size QB would have broken that arm tackle. 

What's your point?

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2 hours ago, SmittyBacall said:

In theory it makes sense but there doesn't seem to be any correlation to what you're espousing. Height, throwing lanes, and batted balls doesn't seem to have anything to do with each other. Flacco led the league last season at 6'6, and in theory he should be seeing the field as well as anyone. Brock Osweiler (6'7) was also notorious in Houston for having his balls batted at the line.  When watching his Youtube cut-ups I have yet to see his height become an issue.  Also, lets pigeon hole Murray as a prospect reliant on his legs. He's not. He's excellent from the pocket, and prefers to throw first; better than any QB in this class. He's excellent off-script and doesn't immediately panic and bolt when pressured. He remains calm and keeps his eyes downfield. The fact that he can escape pressure and threaten defenses with his legs is an added bonus, and what really makes him a truly special player. If Murray struggled in the pocket and relied only on his movement he would be a Manziel-esque prospect and we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's simply not the case. 

Using our shoddy offensive line as an excuse to draft Murray is silly, because he would make our offensive line look better with his escapability. Drafting someone taller like Haskins or Lock wouldn't make our offense or our offensive line play any better. Especially if it's based on an arbitrary argument like throwing lanes or field vision. If anything Murray's ability to rollout and move should be seen as an asset for a team with questionable line play. Murray's ability to escape pressure is part of his strengths as a prospect. You're right, he does compare similar to Russell Wilson - a shorter, lighter, quicker version, with better arm talent. Wilson's height hasn't hampered his game, why would it be so detrimental to Murray? There are ways to scheme him into moving pockets and open throwing lanes, while still playing him to his strengths and letting him create when necessary.

I don't think people actually watch him play because if you did you would be consciously ignorant to say "he won't succeed in the NFLbecause he can't see over the line". There are so many unbelievably positive aspects to his game and people can only focus on the negative - which from everything I've seen seems entirely irrelevant. As you can tell already, I'm firmly in Murray's camp. If he's there at 11 I hope we take him, and I could probably be convinced to trade up for his services. I think he's going to be a really good player in this league. I think he has the potential to be a top 6 type guy.

https://mobile.twitter.com/KentWeyrauch/status/1095358295848730624

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Sam/status/1095381171318542340

 

 

Are you suggesting i haven't watched him play?  You ripped off two paragraphs about him running first.  Read my last post.  

 

19 hours ago, INbengalfan said:

Murray offers the ability to escape and find guys, a la Wilson.  I don't see him as a runner.  More as a guy who uses his legs to buy time to find receivers. 

I ;literally said he isn't a run-first QB.

 

As for the number of batted passes, what does each QB's college line have to do with any of this?  Whoever we have start, be it Dalton, Murray or someone else, is playing behind THIS line.  Cite all the research you want form their college days.  It  has zero bearing on this.  Zero.  As for the research that can't find the exact correlation, whatever/.  I go to games.  Have been for years.  i watch every snap of games that I don't attend.  You know what I have seen with my own eyes?  Pressure.  Tons of it.  Coming straight up the middle.  Guess what Dalton does with pressure in his face?  He looks to the sides to throw or a lane to escape.  Except the past few seasons there haven't been many lanes to escape.  So he throws to the sidelines, where he can actually see who he's throwing to.  If the linemen would actually create lanes for the QB to see, and THROW through, then we use the middle of the field more.

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27 minutes ago, INbengalfan said:

As for the number of batted passes, what does each QB's college line have to do with any of this?  Whoever we have start, be it Dalton, Murray or someone else, is playing behind THIS line.  Cite all the research you want form their college days.  It  has zero bearing on this.  Zero.  As for the research that can't find the exact correlation, whatever/.  I go to games.  Have been for years.  i watch every snap of games that I don't attend.  You know what I have seen with my own eyes?  Pressure.  Tons of it.  Coming straight up the middle.  Guess what Dalton does with pressure in his face?  He looks to the sides to throw or a lane to escape.  Except the past few seasons there haven't been many lanes to escape.  So he throws to the sidelines, where he can actually see who he's throwing to. 

The interior offensive line play needs to improve. I think everyone would agree, no doubt. But I think you're investing too much into this passing lanes idea, and I don't see how that correlates to Murray struggling because of his height. Pressure up the middle is terrible for any QB regardless of talent or height. The issue isn't as much creating throwing lanes as much as it is protection. The great thing about Murray is that he can create his own passing lanes by escaping, resetting his feet and delivering the ball. Also, by scheming Murray to his strengths on the move we can take pressure off of the line. If anything it's more ideal to have a short QB that can move with a weak line more than a tall QB who isn't mobile behind a weak line.

Quote

If the linemen would actually create lanes for the QB to see, and THROW through, then we use the middle of the field more.

But what does this have to do with Murray's size?

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1 hour ago, SmittyBacall said:

 

But what does this have to do with Murray's size?

5'10' Has a harder time seeing over 6'5 linemen than 6'4 QBs do, especially when the passing lane is not created.

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