NFC North Rivals 2019 Talk

[RJ_11]

17 hours ago, CWood21 said:

All I'd like for him to do is post a video and narrate a few minutes of it.  Didn't think that was too much to ask for.

I've only been casually scrolling through this argument from afar, but... you aren't serious are you? Sarcasm doesn't travel well in text so this might have gone over my head, but come on

[CWood21]

5 hours ago, RJ_11 said:

I've only been casually scrolling through this argument from afar, but... you aren't serious are you? Sarcasm doesn't travel well in text so this might have gone over my head, but come on

I didn't realize it was so hard to post a breakdown rather than lazy box score scouting.  I guess I was wrong.

[CWood21]

15 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I've watched games. Gary wasn't always the focus of opposing teams' game plans. That's crazy talk. 

According to you, essentially, where players were drafted is an automatic gauge of their worth.

So, Trubisky's automatically the second best player of the '17 draft, then? Love to hear your follow up on that .

And--are we now pretending Clowney didn't have double digit sacks in college the year before his injury?  Explain to me how that works. You tell us something didn't happen--which did--and we're supposed to automatically agree with you? Seems twisted, at best.

This is now simply madness, and I'm treating it as such. 

You're not arguing with me in an attempt to convince me on Gary...this is an argument with yourself, in an attempt to maintain your mental illusion that the Packers don't make mistakes. 

They did, and I'm done with this garbage.

Yet you still can't bring up a single game where he was "lazy" or "unproductive".  You can't cite any series of plays where those are an issue, yet you maintain he's a bad pick.  Interesting.

And despite your insistence on trying to make an argument that I never made, or a point that I never argued here we are.  No.  Just because a player is drafted at a certain spot doesn't necessarily mean they're worth that.  They're worth it to the team that drafted.  Trubisky was worth the 2nd overall pick to the Bears, Gary was worth the 12th overall pick to the Packers, etc.  Would I prefer to have traded back and pick up some extra picks and take Rashan Gary there?  Absolutely.  But I'm also not naive enough to realize that there are other GMs who might be willing to gamble on Gary in-between when the Packers originally picked and where they traded down.  Brian Burns didn't fit the mold for what Pettine wanted defensively from his OLBs, and Sweat was probably off the board because of medicals.  So you're left with Gary and a bunch of Tier 3 EDGE.  Still not sure what this has to do with my ORIGINAL argument about nobody being a clear grade lean over Gary.

And way to break forum rules.  Instead of discussing football, you diluted it into talking about posters.  I never ONCE said that the Packers don't make mistakes.  Your poor attempts at baiting isn't going to work.  The Packers make mistake.  I just don't jump to the immediate conclusion that a divisional rivals' draft picks are going to suck based on some shoddy analysis.  I don't just assume the Lions' draft is going to suck because they took a TE 8th overall despite a philosophical issue with it.  I don't think the Vikings' draft is going to suck simply because they took an OC in the first round.  I don't think the Bears' draft is going to suck simply because they didn't have a FRP or SRP.  I think the Bears drafted reasonably well for what they had available.  They took high floor guys in Montgomery and Ridley and took some interesting athletes after that.  The Lions probably put too much emphasis on floor, and not enough on upside in an attempt to rebuild their franchise.  The Vikings had an up and down draft, but overall made it a point to improve their OL which was necessary.

[RJ_11]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I didn't realize it was so hard to post a breakdown rather than lazy box score scouting.  I guess I was wrong.

We're just guys on a forum talking about football, I don't think you're gonna get too many people creating their own version of Baldy's Breakdowns...

[soulman]

1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

I didn't realize it was so hard to post a breakdown rather than lazy box score scouting.  I guess I was wrong.

I think your expectations are a little steep for most forums.  So I should ask, would you do it or have you done this to back your own points about Gary?

If you haven't you can't honestly criticize others who haven't either.

[Uncle Buck]

Regarding the two teams picking Gary and Hockenson, I was kind of surprised the way it went because there were a ton of mocks leading up to the draft where the two picks were reversed with Detroit taking Gary and Green Bay picking Hockenson. 

As a fan of a rival NFC North team, I think it would have been worse if the picks were actually reversed because Rodgers and Hockenson could probably do some real damage, and I bet Gary would have fit in really nicely on that Detroit defensive line.  Either way though, both teams probably got a very good player.  It will probably take a couple of years to decide if either team made a mistake. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Uncle Buck

[dll2000]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

Regarding the two teams picking Gary and Hockenson, I was kind of surprised the way it went because there were a ton of mocks leading up to the draft where the two picks were reversed with Detroit taking Gary and Green Bay picking Hockenson. 

As a fan of a rival NFC North team, I think it would have been worse if the picks were actually reversed because Rodgers and Hockenson could probably do some real damage, and I bet Gary would have fit in really nicely on that Detroit defensive line.  Either way though, both teams probably got a very good player.  It will probably take a couple of years to decide if either team made a mistake. 

It would have been better if they were reversed.   Better fits.  

 

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, RJ_11 said:

We're just guys on a forum talking about football, I don't think you're gonna get too many people creating their own version of Baldy's Breakdowns...

You'll have to apologize if asking for someone's opinion requires some thought.

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

I think your expectations are a little steep for most forums.  So I should ask, would you do it or have you done this to back your own points about Gary?

If you haven't you can't honestly criticize others who haven't either.

No.  All I'm asking for is a miniature breakdown.  Especially for someone whose so adamant that Gary was a bad pick.  It's a lazy argument because he put no thought into it.  Post a video and breakdown a few minutes of it.  That's really not much to ask from someone.  It'd be the equivalent of me coming into the Bears forum and saying Montogmery is a poor RB and just parroting what some talking head said.  And I actually did breakdown Gary against Ohio State (I believe) and looked at the first few minutes.  I can't find the link but I'll go ahead and do it again.

0:00 - Recognize the RPO, and correctly crashes down on the RB freeing up Devin Bush to make the play on Haskins.  Bush takes a false step and allows Haskins to hit the edge.  Josh Metellus makes a good play getting on the outside shoulder of the TE forcing Haskins back inside.
0:16 - By my count, he was double-teamed with the LT eventually passing off responsibility to LG when #2 comes on a delayed stunt.
0:26 - Poor job turning the edge against the RT, neutralized.  May have been playing contain given lack of explosion.
0:36 - Initial double team by RG and C, but eventually stunted around to when the RT picked him up.  Poor pass by Haskins, and non-play for Gary.
0:42 - Strong bull rush allows him to get into inside shoulder of RT before RT gets help from RG to bottle up Gary.  Without RG, that's a loss by the RT.  Impact play by Gary.
0:50 - Not exactly sure what Ohio State was doing without blocking Gary.  Designed quick pass.
0:59 - Started playing upright, hurt his ability to hold the edge and missed contain on the RB.
1:07 - Double team by LG and LT limited his ability to get penetration.
1:16 - DESTROYED LT with a strong punch, and made him completely off balance.  Impact play.
1:23 - Held contain on the edge.
1:31 - Initial double team, and still manages to hold the edge and limit the yards for the RB.
1:38 - Not much of a get off there, and it shows when he gets stood up.
1:49 - Sets the edge and after the handoff, he pursues the ball carrier and is in position to make the play.
1:56 - Chipped by the TE, but still manages to shove RT back.

That's just 2 minutes into arguably the worst game of Michigan's season for their defense.  He's getting double-teamed pretty routinely, and it happens in most of their games.

[CWood21]

Here's an honest eval by PR.

He pretty much hit the nail on the head with that evaluation.  Gary knows how to turn speed into power, but he lacks a counter-move, and doesn't consistently run the arc.  Brian Burns is the exact opposite of that.

[dll2000]

2 hours ago, CWood21 said:

No.  All I'm asking for is a miniature breakdown.  Especially for someone whose so adamant that Gary was a bad pick.  It's a lazy argument because he put no thought into it.  Post a video and breakdown a few minutes of it.  That's really not much to ask from someone.  It'd be the equivalent of me coming into the Bears forum and saying Montogmery is a poor RB and just parroting what some talking head said.  And I actually did breakdown Gary against Ohio State (I believe) and looked at the first few minutes.  I can't find the link but I'll go ahead and do it again.

0:00 - Recognize the RPO, and correctly crashes down on the RB freeing up Devin Bush to make the play on Haskins.  Bush takes a false step and allows Haskins to hit the edge.  Josh Metellus makes a good play getting on the outside shoulder of the TE forcing Haskins back inside.
0:16 - By my count, he was double-teamed with the LT eventually passing off responsibility to LG when #2 comes on a delayed stunt.
0:26 - Poor job turning the edge against the RT, neutralized.  May have been playing contain given lack of explosion.
0:36 - Initial double team by RG and C, but eventually stunted around to when the RT picked him up.  Poor pass by Haskins, and non-play for Gary.
0:42 - Strong bull rush allows him to get into inside shoulder of RT before RT gets help from RG to bottle up Gary.  Without RG, that's a loss by the RT.  Impact play by Gary.
0:50 - Not exactly sure what Ohio State was doing without blocking Gary.  Designed quick pass.
0:59 - Started playing upright, hurt his ability to hold the edge and missed contain on the RB.
1:07 - Double team by LG and LT limited his ability to get penetration.
1:16 - DESTROYED LT with a strong punch, and made him completely off balance.  Impact play.
1:23 - Held contain on the edge.
1:31 - Initial double team, and still manages to hold the edge and limit the yards for the RB.
1:38 - Not much of a get off there, and it shows when he gets stood up.
1:49 - Sets the edge and after the handoff, he pursues the ball carrier and is in position to make the play.
1:56 - Chipped by the TE, but still manages to shove RT back.

That's just 2 minutes into arguably the worst game of Michigan's season for their defense.  He's getting double-teamed pretty routinely, and it happens in most of their games.

I see this film very differently from you.  I am being objective here believe it or not since I was saying similar things before Packers drafted him.  

0:00 That was a zone read not an RPO and Gary was the unblocked Read.  Unlikely it was his job to crash down on RB since likely edge responsibility, but we don't know how exactly Michigan was playing the zone read.   I think he screwed up based on what everybody else did.  He likely should have waited and controlled his gap when he saw he was unblocked because there was no one else to do it.    #7 definitely screwed it up by not maintaining outside in leverage on the move TE.  I give a slight benefit of doubt because it's possible #7 had edge from get go in that situation, but then I don't know who would have covered move TE if he leaked so I doubt it.   ILB wouldn't have outside runner responsibility.   

0:10 weak block by move TE on 2nd an 1.  RB gets first down and he assists on tackle for short 1 or 2 yard gain.  Not bad or good.  Did his job.  On 2nd and short he could stand to be a bit more aggressive and attempt to deny the first.  

0:16 - See many who Gary defenders are counting these plays as double teams again and again.  To me this isn't a double team.  He changes gaps and player passes him off.  It's a normal football zone blocking play.  Truly great DL destroy these plays with regularity because they are working on other side of LINE OF SCRIMMAGE into OL hips not playing patty cake on the LINE OF SCRIMMAGE.  Go watch Q. Williams or Donald's college tape.  

0:26 Neutralized 1 on 1 with RT.  BS he was playing contain, if he was he shouldn't have been and that is a knock too because he couldn't make a basic read.  Straight drop by QB with a deep pass set by RT.

0:36 was running outside stunt to free up somebody else.  Somebody who will make a play hopefully.

0:42 Bull to inside gap where Guard gave help (because its his gap not because they specifically schemed him).  Non factor.  I would not count that as a pressure.

0:50 Oh St. Guard thought T was taking him.  By time he realized his mistake Gary was past.  He didn't make a play, he was unblocked. Credit for taking advantage of it. Didn't matter because play was away from him.

0:59 Went way wide and didn't control or squeeze his gap at all on a run read.  Next DL was a 0 tech.  That can't have been his job.  He made a huge hole.  Really, really bad play.  

1:07 This is not a double team.  2 guys are blocking 2 guys.  They are protecting their gaps until someone else enters their gap.  Just because 2 guys briefly touch you doesn't make it a double team.  That's zone.  Not a special designed scheme for Gary.   He doesn't do anything here.  

1:16 What?  OL went down but he would have held him off for near 4 secs had QB held ball until Gary got there.  An adequate to good block if not atheistically pretty.  #15 gave the pressure there was on that play not Gary.  

1:23 LOL. You see how he feathered on the zone read look that time?  I was right he screwed up on first play when he crashed.  

1:31 NOT A DOUBLE TEAM.  Zone blocking.  Sheesh your definition of a double team means every DL is double teamed nearly every play.  And if he was doing his job correctly guard should have never touched him.  He did a meh job here.  Safety made the play.

1:38 Did nothing. Took play off basically.

1:49 This is a decent play.  Why didn't he use his hands on blocker?  Should have. 

1:56 Goes upfield gets blocked has no idea where football is.  

Gary is a stud athlete.  A super stud athlete.  But he just doesn't translate that to enough impact plays in games.  IMO, he should have gone in 2nd round based on his film and his athletic upside.  2nd rounders are still potentially great players so I am not overly knocking him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heinz D.]

7 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Yet you still can't bring up a single game where he was "lazy" or "unproductive".  You can't cite any series of plays where those are an issue, yet you maintain he's a bad pick.  Interesting.

I never called him lazy. I said his career was unproductive. As I previously said, I'm not taking the time to break anything down because it's pointless. 

3 hours ago, CWood21 said:

No.  All I'm asking for is a miniature breakdown.  Especially for someone whose so adamant that Gary was a bad pick.  It's a lazy argument because he put no thought into it.  Post a video and breakdown a few minutes of it.  That's really not much to ask from someone.  It'd be the equivalent of me coming into the Bears forum and saying Montogmery is a poor RB and just parroting what some talking head said.  

That's utterly hilarious coming from someone who treated the Trubisky pick the way you did, and then the subsequent Mack trade. The hypocrisy is strong with this one. 

As an overall league fan, I hope the Gary pick works out for you. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Heinz D.

[soulman]

5 hours ago, CWood21 said:

No.  All I'm asking for is a miniature breakdown.  Especially for someone whose so adamant that Gary was a bad pick.  It's a lazy argument because he put no thought into it.  Post a video and breakdown a few minutes of it.  That's really not much to ask from someone.  It'd be the equivalent of me coming into the Bears forum and saying Montogmery is a poor RB and just parroting what some talking head said.

Nice work but IMHO most posters wouldn't take the time to do a play by play breakdown of our own top pick let alone GB's.  Few are even capable of it so you're in a minority of those who can.  Personally I would never do it unless someone was paying me to instead of their scouts and coaches.  To quote Freddy Prinze (RIP) "Eees not my job".  So it actually is a lot to ask for those who aren't NFL personnel guys or major draftniks who enjoy doing it.

And on the second issue.....did Heinz D actually come into the Packer Forum and post his critique of Gary or was the only place he posted it here?

If it was only posted here then as I see YOU'RE the one posting in a rival forum defending the pick and IMHO you have a greater obligation to post an analysis that's refutes his opinion.....which you did very nicely.  On the flip side if Heinz D posted his opinions in a Packer Forum wouldn't you be posting your response there instead of here?  I can agree that you can set the ROE in your GB forum but not so much in a Bears fan forum.  We do that.

I have no horse in this race and other than being somewhat surprised by the pick it's not up to me to critique Gutekunst thinking.  Don't get paid enough to do that either.   Time will eventually prove out who the better picks were in any draft and despite the rivalry I'm not gonna pick on GB draft picks for a forum topic.  I might do it with Detroit though.  They're  usually much easier to pick on.     Cheers. 

PS:  I'm actually gonna be in GB in a few weeks so I'll learn more about Gary from my football infused grandson than I will anywhere else and I'll have his opinion as to whether the Packers should have taken Fant over Gary.  That kid wants to be an NFL GM someday so he's working hard at it now as just a HS Frosh.

[Heinz D.]

1 hour ago, soulman said:

 I'm actually gonna be in GB in a few weeks so I'll learn more about Gary from my football infused grandson than I will anywhere else and I'll have his opinion as to whether the Packers should have taken Fant over Gary.  That kid wants to be an NFL GM someday so he's working hard at it now as just a HS Frosh.

For reals? Dude, that's awesome! 

[soulman]

21 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

For reals? Dude, that's awesome! 

He and I have been talking NFL football since he was in 6th grade and I am shocked by his knowledge and aptitude for the game.  My grandfather turned me into a Bears fan at a very young age and I've retained a lot of Bears knowledge and football lore over the years from the 1960s on.  Also having lived in and near GB for 15 years I know a lot of Packer lore as well.  Come in handy at times when in a hostile environment.  LOL

My grandson is currently doing online podcasts of the local indoor league team.  The kid lives and loves football and I couldn't be more proud of him making it a career in it a lifetime goal.  I'll never be more than an amateur arm chair GM with a ton of fan level experience and some professional experience with pro contracts and contract negotiations.  He on the other hand may get a shot at running the train some day.

Just hope it's not the Packers.