2020 NFL Draft Thread

[BayRaider]

28 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Your preferred option was getting Brady and drafting Love at 12 though? 
 

 

Brady/Love was a combo plan. Not a “I want Love at 12” no matter what plan. Love learning from Brady? Hell yes. You’re learning from the GOAT and Love is a massive project. Love learning from Carr? God, no. I have not advocated drafting Jordan Love without the context of Tom Brady. 

I have never once advocated Jordan Love at 12, or 19, for the Raiders, by himself. Nor has anyone else on this forum. He just wanted to make his usual every 2-3 day Jordan Love-Hate post. Once again, if I had posted the Justin Herbert is a Bust video, I would have had 5 replies calling me a hater. The double standards of this forum, which is beyond annoying. Everyone should be treated the same, period. 

Check all my mocks. I’ve posted like 12 total in the mock section. Not one time have I selected Love at 12, or even 19. Maybe a playful mock in this thread, where I’ve mocked almost all players to us, although I’m pretty positive I haven’t. And I have never once pounded the table for him. 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by BayRaider

[Dessie]

19 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

 

Brady/Love was a combo plan. Not a “I want Love at 12” no matter what plan. Love learning from Brady? Hell yes. You’re learning from the GOAT and Love is a massive project. Love learning from Carr? God, no. 

I have never once advocated Jordan Love at 12, or 19, for the Raiders, by himself. Nor has anyone else on this forum. He just wanted to make his usual every 2-3 day Jordan Love-Hate post. Once again, if I had posted the Justin Herbert is a Bust video, I would have had 5 replies calling me a hater. 

Check all my mocks. I’ve posted like 12 on here. Not one time have I selected Love at 12, or even 19. And I have never once pounded the table for him.

 

 

Your initial reply was ‘who ever suggested drafting Love’. The simple answer is you did. Now you are saying that there were caveats to that. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Dessie

[BayRaider]

2 minutes ago, Dessie said:

Your initial reply was ‘who ever suggested drafting Love’. The simple answer is you did. Now you are saying that there were caveats to that. 

I think this requires context though. I only wanted Love under one condition: Tom Brady. Do I want Love right now at 12 or 19? No. Although I’d be totally open to it, like anything Mayock does. 
 

But yes, I guess I did technically say it, so I’ll an L here. 

[jimkelly02]

4 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Was this a different forum? I don’t remember a single member of the 40-45 posters on here advocating for Jordan Love. I personally think you just wanted to hate on Love, which you do all the time. 
 

I’ve never posted the Alex Rollins “Justin Herbert is the Next NFL Bust” video because I didn’t wanna get labeled a hater. Which I would of been labeled. 
 

 

Herbert has a very high chance of busting.... no one is going to be attacking you for thinking that. I don’t understand why you keep sidestepping the critique of Love by bringing up Herbert thought.  I’m not taking a shot at you personally or anything I just think it’s crazy that a prospect with such a rhedmentary understanding of reading defenses was once considered by some to be the player that we invested #12 in and got rid of Carr for. Some “experts” were even talking about him being an option for us as early as a few weeks ago.  In fact, I desperately hope some teams are as bullish on Love as you are so we can get out of a real horrible Value Proposition at 19.  Terrell or Johnson at 19 makes me sick.  It’s basically like we got Jacobs and a 2nd for Mack.  My hatred towards Mack and the Bears (and Reggie for that matter for not having the balls to hold out for 2 1s straight up and lacking the foresight to trade him to a worse team offering the same deal or better) runs deep.  Hopefully someone team is as taken with his arm talent as you are.  I just see him for the fools gold that he is.  Weak conference/competition, very basic offense running the same plays over and over and he doesn’t have the mental processing ability to read Mountain West Conference defenses on a consistent level.... itd s going to be a “seeing ghosts” ala D’Arnold and the jets but way worse situation.  
 

Having arm talent but lacking the ability to read defenses, especially during the play, is why Jamie’s Winston throws so many Int’s snd appears to me a bust now.  It’s s horrible combination.  The Big Arm allows him to actually get away with a bad read or decision every once in a while so when he does it again thinking well it worked before... well not this time.  It’s an enabling crutch.  Not only that it even promotes making risky decisions on plays he knows aren’t optimal situations.  
Love ain’t going to just narrowly feed the ball into those small holes on questionable throws he got away with due to his arm in the NFL.  5’10 4.65 Mountain West cornerbacks will swap out for  6’1 4.45 NFL caliber corner backs with safeties that can go hash to hash in single high.  You can teach a guy to read coverage better but at this point in the game it’s far more often players are who they are from a mentality point.... and Love’s a gunner.  This “Mahomes’esque” arm that people talk about isn’t anything that special that we haven’t seen before.   Kyle Boller has a cannon.... so did J.Winston, Kaepernick, Josh Freeman... Love doesn’t have a magical arm or anything we haven’t seen 10x before.  The thing he has is a comparison to Mahomes due to both having this MLB pitcher throwing motion, similar athletic builds, and ability to throw bombs on the run.  But if you (Not you BayRaider specifically) think Mahomes is a special talent and Love is comparable (and thus why you rate him so highly)  your kind of ignoring the uniqueness in Mahomes abilities.  Your taking a lower talent and inflating him to be more than what he is hoping to have the QB the whole NFL wants.  How often do these “the next XXX” ever work out?  Very Rarely.  

I have a very strong prediction:

This class of “4 Top QBs” that was once forecast to be so great..... will have only 1 “successfully” QB and that’s Burrow...and by that I mean personal success you can’t blame Burrow for playing a bad organization.

Love and be a Boller-like bust, Herbert will bed bust like Winstead and waste all 5 years of the rookie deal showing promise but never being enough, and Tua will Bust in the sense he will play well but not nearly to the level that was expected of him before injuries mar his career.  

This QB class is incredibly overrated. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by jimkelly02

[jimkelly02]

Btw I want to impeccably State this isn’t a “Got You @BayRaider” post.  It wasn’t intended to be from the jump.

he was very bullish on Love.  I thought I remember him saying he’d want love at 12, but he and I said a lot of things In a series of long beefs, lol.  I’ll be the first to admit I doubled down after he went all in against Carr and pro Love, in general, a few times.  I see Carr’s faults.... I want to punch him in his face when he spikes a 3rd and goal or only decides to take off 2-3x a year (of all it seems) and then fumbles it reaching for the pylon,,,, every F’ing time! For a touchback and the other teams ball.... but My response to defend Carr was in response to What I perceived to be attempts to replace Carr with worse options.  Anyways....I really don’t want to ever do that debate again....

if BayRaider wants to think Love is amazing I don’t care.  He’s not The only one.... I just have been on record as saying his fools gold and taking him will set the franchise back 2-3 years AT the absolute worst time.  We’re finally on the up and up with resources and coming off a shoulda been playoff team last year.

And while I of all people LOVE... absolutely LOVE to catch him in a twist of words.... when he’s right he’s right...

there has to be context to what he said.  I didn’t (yet) go back and reread his old posts. 
but if it was love at 12 conditional of signing Brady and trading Carr then I really couldn’t personal pin a “Gotcha!” On him.  I don’t like that idea but If I was high on Love I would understand that plan.  The addition of Brady makes it so if Love Isn’t what we want as our next QB we can trade him in 1-2 years for at least a 2nd and 4th.... cuz I’d assume he’d show out in the preseason, as we’d only play him late in games to go against guys that are getting cut... we’d protect our asset.  Even if Love busts its almost like any other player we take at 12 becoming a bust... it sucks yeah but it doesn’t set us back 3-4 years like a normal 1st round QB.

but when I get time I’ll try and go back and Pull some fully contextualized BayRaider comments on Love.  I know most of you do love to see the little fights but not the big ones... lol

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, BayRaider said:

 

Brady/Love was a combo plan. Not a “I want Love at 12” no matter what plan. Love learning from Brady? Hell yes. You’re learning from the GOAT and Love is a massive project. Love learning from Carr? God, no. I have not advocated drafting Jordan Love without the context of Tom Brady. 

I have never once advocated Jordan Love at 12, or 19, for the Raiders, by himself. Nor has anyone else on this forum. He just wanted to make his usual every 2-3 day Jordan Love-Hate post. Once again, if I had posted the Justin Herbert is a Bust video, I would have had 5 replies calling me a hater. The double standards of this forum, which is beyond annoying. Everyone should be treated the same, period. 

Check all my mocks. I’ve posted like 12 total in the mock section. Not one time have I selected Love at 12, or even 19. Maybe a playful mock in this thread, where I’ve mocked almost all players to us, although I’m pretty positive I haven’t. And I have never once pounded the table for him. 

 

 

I just typed a long response and lost it again... omg so annoying... I’ll make this one shorter (I just realized this one is longer than before after I finished writing.. fml!)
 

this is an example of 3 things you constantly do:

1.  I didn’t initially come at you or make the posts about you.  If you read into it like that I’m sorry but as you’ve said a few times “I must be in your head...your obsessed” (i say that in a friendly joking way only).  I wasn’t thinking about you when I posted that video and comments.  And your def not the only one to be bullish on Love.  Just saw a ESPN video with talk of him at 6.  I wasnt trying to throw a jab at you.  Do you really want to know how that post went down... it was like 3am... my gf just broke me off some crazy sex and I stumbled downstairs for some OJ and a celebratory boggie.  I’m smoking my cig and opened up youtube and saw it and thought it was a good video that did a way better job of discussing the things I and several others on here talked about in the past... so I threw it up with some comments.  Wasn’t talking about you.  If I was I’d have replied and provoked you rather then going back to bed... notice I didn’t reply last night after you posted..... I Wasn’t trying to stick a finger in your chest and tell ya “i told you”.  Yet you make it about that with this post.

2.  “deflection”.  After making this a perceived personal attack on yourself and your ability to scout players ... when you don’t have a good response to what the video says you deflect from the debate at hand and move to “well Herbert is gonna bust too!” (Btw when I quote like this it’s not what you exactly said it’s me just pretending to me you and what your generally saying).  We weren’t talking about Herbert. Totally unrelated.  You only bring him up For reasons I can only guess are a lack of credible response to the Love criticism and thus your response is to deflect the discussion..... btw why do you think “you’d be chastised for posting comments Anti-Herbert”?  I mean the guy is clearly a high risk prospect that i dont see having a huge following here and he’s not even an Realistic option for us so no one here is backing him.  In fact the consensus is he’s gonna be a Charger so I’d logically guess we’d all back any “Herbert will be a bust” comments.  
 

3.  You get ridiculous.  I make 2-3 anti Love posts a day? I’ve made a bunch over a few months time but 2-3 a day come on!  Your inflating things at a ridiculous level to make this a personal thing to try and “win” a self perceived battle.  In this little exchange not once have I come at you... in fact..... in fact.... I just opened up this forum and read the responses back to front and saw dessie hit you with a “yes you did say you wanted love at 12, now your backtracking”..... and I defended you! I didn’t go at dessie in anyway.... but I did say your right context matters and Brady+Love at 12 wasnt a “horrible” idea....(back a month or so ago when Brady and Love’s “stock” was at record highs) and context does matter.  As soon as I’m done being cool towards you.... I scroll back some more and boom your taking a shot at me.  I’ve admitted my faults and wrong doings in the past.  I owned them publicly here.  You on the other hand (at least how I see it) and taken the “ive done nothing wrong, I’m not sorry.” And the most annoying of all “ I’m the victim here” routine.  I’ll leave it at that cuZ I’m not trying to fight.  

honestly I do like busting ur balls a bit in a fun way every now and again but I don’t sit up at 3am and look for ways to jab at you. I really just saw a good breakdown on a player the media is still pimping real hard and a handful of posters here liked a lot when he was “hot”.  I don’t want to fight with you 24/7.... it was fun for a hot minute but got tiring .... plus we agreed to stop and I promised I would to others too. Let’s just talk football and have fun.  

[BayRaider]

Anyways, back to Raider Draft Prospects:

Someone was nice enough to answer my wish list of every single one of Jaylon Johnsons targets of the 2019 season. 
 

Obviously he’s not Okudah/Henderson in Man Coverage, but he holds his own for the most part. He’s also the smartest corner in this draft when it comes to reading routes. He’s a very nice Cover 3 and Cover 1 Press Corner. I wouldn’t say the Chiefs have a kryptonite by any means but the Chargers 2x, 49ers, Colts, and Raiders 2x outside of the 2nd QTR of the 1st game were the 6 games Mahomes struggled in the most this season. What do these teams have in common? They played majority Cover 3 Press. 
 

Pick 19 is an interesting one. I want three guys there at the moment: Jaylon Johnson, Ross Blacklock, and AJ Terrell. I like Baun as well, but just like Chaisson, not sure a guy who would play SLB in Base and Nickel LB would be worth Pick 19. Do love me some Baun though. 
 

Watched Fulton yet again for like the fourth time, and I still can’t get behind him. He’s falling for a reason. 
 

I know we have a thread for this, but assuming we go WR at 12, who are you targeting at 19 with trade down not as an option? 

[Dessie]

15 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

Anyways, back to Raider Draft Prospects:

Someone was nice enough to answer my wish list of every single one of Jaylon Johnsons targets of the 2019 season. 
 

Obviously he’s not Okudah/Henderson in Man Coverage, but he holds his own for the most part. He’s also the smartest corner in this draft when it comes to reading routes. He’s a very nice Cover 3 and Cover 1 Press Corner. I wouldn’t say the Chiefs have a kryptonite by any means but the Chargers 2x, 49ers, Colts, and Raiders 2x outside of the 2nd QTR of the 1st game were the 6 games Mahomes struggled in the most this season. What do these teams have in common? They played majority Cover 3 Press. 
 

Pick 19 is an interesting one. I want three guys there at the moment: Jaylon Johnson, Ross Blacklock, and AJ Terrell. I like Baun as well, but just like Chaisson, not sure a guy who would play SLB in Base and Nickel LB would be worth Pick 19. Do love me some Baun though. 
 

Watched Fulton yet again for like the fourth time, and I still can’t get behind him. He’s falling for a reason. 
 

I know we have a thread for this, but assuming we go WR at 12, who are you targeting at 19 with trade down not as an option? 

Big fan of Johnson. Was worried the value wasn’t there at #19 but I’d take him now. 

 

[BayRaider]

As for Terrell, he was pretty damn good last year and started off that LSU game with three swats. Chase eventually took over and roasted him but Burrow/Chase/Brady may be the best QB/WR/OC combo we’ve ever seen in college football, and I don’t think that’s a exaggerated comment. Plus Chase is a Top 15 Pick next year for sure. 
 

I think I can forgive Terrell for that game. 
 

I still prefer Johnson over Terrell. Don’t think that’ll change. But I’d have no issues at all if Terrell is the pick at 19. 

[roi34]

18 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

As for Terrell, he was pretty damn good last year and started off that LSU game with three swats. Chase eventually took over and roasted him but Burrow/Chase/Brady may be the best QB/WR/OC combo we’ve ever seen in college football, and I don’t think that’s a exaggerated comment. Plus Chase is a Top 15 Pick next year for sure. 
 

I think I can forgive Terrell for that game. 
 

I still prefer Johnson over Terrell. Don’t think that’ll change. But I’d have no issues at all if Terrell is the pick at 19. 

Agreed, would love Chase

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, roi34 said:

Agreed, would love Chase

 

1 hour ago, BayRaider said:

As for Terrell, he was pretty damn good last year and started off that LSU game with three swats. Chase eventually took over and roasted him but Burrow/Chase/Brady may be the best QB/WR/OC combo we’ve ever seen in college football, and I don’t think that’s a exaggerated comment. Plus Chase is a Top 15 Pick next year for sure. 
 

I think I can forgive Terrell for that game. 
 

I still prefer Johnson over Terrell. Don’t think that’ll change. But I’d have no issues at all if Terrell is the pick at 19. 

Terrell did start off making plays, and even the big plays Chase got he was good coverage on the play, just a great throw and great catch.  One TD terrell’s teammate picked him and chase ran a wheel route (? I think ?) and got the Td but that’s wasn’t terrell’s fault.  (Going off memory here). The narrative that he got destroyed is a little much... he got beat by great plays he was in place to a stop on most occasions.  I really like him, Johnson’s good too.  I’d just so rather get them late 1st, early 2nd like where we took Mullen, who I think is a real step above.  I’d say Mullen was a B+ prospect and Terrell and Johnson are B/B-‘s

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Anyways, back to Raider Draft Prospects:

Very nice video, great share thank you!  How often do we get all coverage snaps when targeted for an entire year in one video?
 
i like johnson. It’s been well documented here his cover skills and intelligence.  But the one thing I don’t see if that consistent Plant foot in ground and drive on the ball.  That’s something Mullen is very good at and why he breaks up a lot of his passes.  The second play of that clip... a good plant and drive and that’s a pick 6. QB got away throwing a cross field duck.

if people are gonna get on terrell for LSU game, what about johnson vs USC?  I’m not particularly leaning towards one or the other (like them both the same) I’m just saying.

Johnson is very good at coming up with ints and PDs when plays break down abd qb scrambles... very important and under emphasized trait imo.  Also can say enough about Johnson’s intelligence + recognition skills and ability to run wr’s routes off this. 

btw Dezmond Patman from wsu would be a nice UDFA WR to bring to camp.  Big WR with speed (6’4 225 4.46) who gets deep.  Had Johnson beat to back of end zone and would have had Td if pass was on target.  That’s not a easy matchup for Johnson.  With Anthony Gordon and that offense and Patmon’s size,speed,skill it’s a tough cover all game.  He did pretty good though. Some of those completions he allowed were a result of being up and playing soft Coverage on purpose.  This is an important thing to consider when looking at CB stats.  All stats need context, and for instance a Cb on a good team may often allow several pointless catches late in games with the lead... when they’re coverage is “just don’t allow a TD”.

for the conference he was in Johnson had some under appreciated matchups with Gordon/Patmos and Luton/Isaiah Hodges 

was he Only targeted once vs ASU?

he got beat deep a few times... juwan Johnson (Oregon) and vs UCLA but overthrow... wtf? He was beat by 5-6 yards bad bad pass!

Edited April 12, 2020 by jimkelly02

[Chali21]

I remember quite a bit of Love..er..love on the forum. Many here wanted him because of his Mahomes level potential. I think since FA people have eased off of him Especially after the Raiders passed on Brady and Rivers. Personally i think if he had a pro day he’d have received more hype as a prospect. 

[oakdb36]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

Very nice video, great share thank you!  How often do we get all coverage snaps when targeted for an entire year in one video?
 
i like johnson. It’s been well documented here his cover skills and intelligence.  But the one thing I don’t see if that consistent Plant foot in ground and drive on the ball.  That’s something Mullen is very good at and why he breaks up a lot of his passes.  The second play of that clip... a good plant and drive and that’s a pick 6. QB got away throwing a cross field duck.

if people are gonna get on terrell for LSU game, what about johnson vs USC?  I’m not particularly leaning towards one or the other (like them both the same) I’m just saying.

Johnson is very good at coming up with ints and PDs when plays break down abd qb scrambles... very important and under emphasized trait imo.  Also can say enough about Johnson’s intelligence + recognition skills and ability to run wr’s routes off this. 

btw Dezmond Patman from wsu would be a nice UDFA WR to bring to camp.  Big WR with speed (6’4 225 4.46) who gets deep.  Had Johnson beat to back of end zone and would have had Td if pass was on target.  That’s not a easy matchup for Johnson.  With Anthony Gordon and that offense and Patmon’s size,speed,skill it’s a tough cover all game.  He did pretty good though. Some of those completions he allowed were a result of being up and playing soft Coverage on purpose.  This is an important thing to consider when looking at CB stats.  All stats need context, and for instance a Cb on a good team may often allow several pointless catches late in games with the lead... when they’re coverage is “just don’t allow a TD”.

for the conference he was in Johnson had some under appreciated matchups with Gordon/Patmos and Luton/Isaiah Hodges 

was he Only targeted once vs ASU?

he got beat deep a few times... juwan Johnson (Oregon) and vs UCLA but overthrow... wtf? He was beat by 5-6 yards bad bad pass!

The concerns i'd have with him after watching the video would be balance and hip flexibility.

[jimkelly02]

19 minutes ago, oakdb36 said:

The concerns i'd have with him after watching the video would be balance and hip flexibility.

interesting point... I’ll have to go back and watch the snaps even closer to pick that up.  Sometimes it’s hard to get the full vision of what happened when it’s not All-22s cuz the WR and CB leave the screen so often.  
 

I see a good CB don’t get be wrong here, not ****e’ing on the boards hot prospect... I just don’t see the quick, explosive drive on the ball.  His InTs and Pd’s tended to come mostly from placing himself in good spots and I’d guess running the wr’s routes off recognition rather than being able to plant and explode.  
 

and he did get burned need a few times by good but not great WRs who weren’t exactly Ruggs. Long speed isn’t a huge concern but I’d say his recovery speed is average at best.  
 

his physicality, recognition/intelligence, etc could get him round 1 (due to only 2 top cb’s and like 5 2nd tier guys (Johnson, Terrell, Fulton, gladney, diggs... and maybe Arnette + Hall + Igbinoghene in a 2b tier, depending on team scheme and preference)..... but his lack of drive on the ball, deep/recovery speed, etc should give him a round 2 grade.  When I say round 2 grade, I say that with the stipulation in an average draft class there are only 20-25 round 1 graded players and 32 spots so round 2 players will be forced up.  Like I’ve said before I found Mullen and Greedy Williams had higher grades but he’s on par with Rock Ya-Sin and above Murphy-Bunting and a whole tier above Lonnie Johnson, JoeJuan Williams Who went mid round 2.  If he was in ‘18 class he’d be neck and neck with Mike Hughes.