QB Tiers

[TitanLegend]

5 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah well I like Watson but Mahomes is better and as far as deep passing Mahomes is way better. You threw out stats and then dismissed stats. Then you say Mahomes was in a better situation (mostly because of Mahomes btw) so he can't be graded even though he and Watson have nearly the same passing experience. Trubisky has more starts and wins than Watson too so it isn't a length of service only that you are basing this off of so obviously you just don't believe in Mahomes for some strange reason.

Yes, Mahomes was a better QB than Watson last season.

Yes, Mahomes was a better deep passer than Watson last season.

I explained why your "but the pass attempts" debate was faulty. The only thing I "threw out" was box score scouting. That's not throwing out stats as a whole. What throwing out box score scouting means is I don't look at a player's stat line and assume their performance was exactly as their stat line says. I watch the game. I look at the in depth stats, generally to see if they match or oppose my position. If they oppose my position I generally try to go through and give it a 2nd look, even if brief. Then form the "final opinion" of the performance. That's my method.

Watson and Mahomes don't have the same experience. The context around their situations is entirely different and Watson has performed this way in two separate seasons. As we've been shown and as I've already given examples of, performances can drastically change from one season to the next.

And yes, Mahomes deserves a lot of credit for how good he was last season. But Reid also deserves credit for being one of the best offensive minds in football. His offensive line deserves credit for being one of the more solid ones in football. His receiving corps deserves credit for being solid all around. etc. He was in a good situation last year, and he put out great performances.

Trubisky only has one season of starts in his offense and looked drastically different in said offense, which makes sense because the offenses are worlds apart in terms of scheme and overall effectiveness. Going from John Fox/Dowell Loggains to Matt Nagy is like going from the school cafeteria to a michelin star restaurant. I thought he was largely decent last season, if inconsistent at times. I want to see a 2nd go around in Nagy's offense before I feel confident in placing him a tier.

You can make your own wrong assumptions about my feelings towards Mahomes all you like. My explanations are clear as day. It's not difficult to follow. Mahomes was incredible last year. I want to see how he does a 2nd season. I don't "believe in" or "not believe in" any of the QBs in the unknown tier. That's why they're in the unknown tier. For me to believe in you as a franchise QB or cast you aside as some run of the mill guy(or worse) you have to consistently perform as a franchise QB or consistently perform as a run of the mill guy(or worse).

It's really not that hard to follow.

[Thomas5737]

29 minutes ago, TitanLegend said:

Yes, Mahomes was a better QB than Watson last season.

Yes, Mahomes was a better deep passer than Watson last season.

I explained why your "but the pass attempts" debate was faulty. The only thing I "threw out" was box score scouting. That's not throwing out stats as a whole. What throwing out box score scouting means is I don't look at a player's stat line and assume their performance was exactly as their stat line says. I watch the game. I look at the in depth stats, generally to see if they match or oppose my position. If they oppose my position I generally try to go through and give it a 2nd look, even if brief. Then form the "final opinion" of the performance. That's my method.

Watson and Mahomes don't have the same experience. The context around their situations is entirely different and Watson has performed this way in two separate seasons. As we've been shown and as I've already given examples of, performances can drastically change from one season to the next.

And yes, Mahomes deserves a lot of credit for how good he was last season. But Reid also deserves credit for being one of the best offensive minds in football. His offensive line deserves credit for being one of the more solid ones in football. His receiving corps deserves credit for being solid all around. etc. He was in a good situation last year, and he put out great performances.

Trubisky only has one season of starts in his offense and looked drastically different in said offense, which makes sense because the offenses are worlds apart in terms of scheme and overall effectiveness. Going from John Fox/Dowell Loggains to Matt Nagy is like going from the school cafeteria to a michelin star restaurant. I thought he was largely decent last season, if inconsistent at times. I want to see a 2nd go around in Nagy's offense before I feel confident in placing him a tier.

You can make your own wrong assumptions about my feelings towards Mahomes all you like. My explanations are clear as day. It's not difficult to follow. Mahomes was incredible last year. I want to see how he does a 2nd season. I don't "believe in" or "not believe in" any of the QBs in the unknown tier. That's why they're in the unknown tier. For me to believe in you as a franchise QB or cast you aside as some run of the mill guy(or worse) you have to consistently perform as a franchise QB or consistently perform as a run of the mill guy(or worse).

It's really not that hard to follow.

It is hard to follow. Mahomes has one less career win (the same if you include playoffs) and 5 more passing TDs (7 if you include playoffs) than Watson. He has the 2nd most passing TDs in a season ever. He is the reigning MVP. Even if he drops down to mediocre for the rest of his career he is still in the Cam Newton group. All he has to do is average 19 TD and 14 INT per season.

It's your list you can do what you want but I watched Mahomes several times and he isn't Reid's puppet his arm talent is elite in every aspect.

[Duluther]

I have to say Russell deserves to be in the elite category. Sad to k lot see him jn one person’s.

[Bearerofnews]

Sorry but how do i insert the image directly on this board?

[SBLIII]

Do I need twitter for this?

[Nightime]

On 6/1/2019 at 1:34 AM, TitanLegend said:

Watson over two seasons(yes, the first was cut short, but still a solid 6 or 7 game sample size) with garbage tier coaching and an offensive line that is probably the worst in the league has performed at a consistently above average level. So yes, he fits in to above average for me.

And yes, Mahomes had a ton of pass attempts and nearly matches Watson's total. What you're ignoring with that statement however is the difference in play calling/coaching and personnel. Looking at last season, Mahomes threw 121 passes at or behind the line of scrimmage(72 for Watson). Reid utilizes the pass game as an extension of the run game to a far greater extent than BoB's dumbass ever has. The only other split where there's a notable difference between the two is in the 20+ yard split.

Watson threw 254 passes in the 0-10 range. Mahomes 243.

Watson 129 in the 10-20 range. Mahomes 125.

Watson 59 in the 20+ range. Mahomes 106.

So when factoring in how the Chiefs use the pass as an extension of the run, their passing totals last year are largely similar. And as it relates to personnel, if Will Fuller, the Texans top deep threat, wasn't hurt for most of last season, Watson probably comes closer(though wouldn't match) to Mahomes in the deep attempts as well. If Watson's o-line also wasn't swiss cheese, he probably comes closer to matching Mahomes in deep targets too.

If you're trying to get me to say Mahomes had a fantastic 2018, then there you go. I'm not arguing otherwise. If I were ranking solely based off 2018 he would be in the elite tier. I don't rank solely off a single season when I make my tier lists though. And I also don't just judge QBs off their box scores. I watch them and then look at splits, more indepth stats(analytics if you want to call it that), etc to form my opinions.

Mahomes already has more career touchdowns, fewer interceptions, more playoff wins, more MVPs, and the same number of career wins (13) as Watson.

 Mahomes has played 19 games, Watson 23. I’d easily rate Mahomes, he’s somewhat “unknown” but that unknown is more “is he merely a franchise guy or an all time great?” 

[TXsteeler]

On 6/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, Bearerofnews said:

Sorry but how do i insert the image directly on this board?

 

On 6/2/2019 at 7:40 AM, SBLIII said:

Do I need twitter for this?

I made my list and then went to imgur and created it, then copied the link and inserted it as an image from url under "insert other media" down on the bottom right just above the "submit reply" button. The original link that I copied wouldn't work so I copied the link and opened it up in a different browser and then copied the link from there. It was very clunky but it worked.

[TXsteeler]

This would be interesting to see a FF community tier list made, maybe exclude anyone who has less than ~2 seasons worth of games played so we don't have to deal with a bunch of "unknowns".

[SBLIII]

23 hours ago, Nightime said:

Mahomes already has more career touchdowns, fewer interceptions, more playoff wins, more MVPs, and the same number of career wins (13) as Watson.

 Mahomes has played 19 games, Watson 23. I’d easily rate Mahomes, he’s somewhat “unknown” but that unknown is more “is he merely a franchise guy or an all time great?” 

All-time great more likely than not imo.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, TXsteeler said:

This would be interesting to see a FF community tier list made, maybe exclude anyone who has less than ~2 seasons worth of games played so we don't have to deal with a bunch of "unknowns".

That does take away more than 1/3 of the league's starting QBs.

[Bearerofnews]

3 hours ago, TXsteeler said:

 

I made my list and then went to imgur and created it, then copied the link and inserted it as an image from url under "insert other media" down on the bottom right just above the "submit reply" button. The original link that I copied wouldn't work so I copied the link and opened it up in a different browser and then copied the link from there. It was very clunky but it worked.

Thanks appreciate it. 

[SBLIII]

[RaidersAreOne]

It's most definitely a make or break year for Carr. The last time he had a returning OC, he was an MVP candidate. We've also drastically improved his supporting cast so there are no excuses for the guy other than a brutal schedule. 

If he can't put up W's this season, I bet we cut our losses and draft one high next season.

[TXsteeler]

20 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

That does take away more than 1/3 of the league's starting QBs.

That's crazy when you think about it. About a third of the league's starting QBs have been starting for nearly 10+ years and a third have barely even played 2.

[Chargers]

On 6/3/2019 at 12:14 PM, SBLIII said:

Stafford over Foles? I just don't see it seeing as how good Foles has been the last two seasons. Outside of a few good games when the season was over for the 49ers in 2017, what exactly has JimmyG done to make him in tier above Trubisky?