Dome's Saloon and House of Maidens - Duel Six- Duel Voting deadline is 10pm EST on Monday

[MWil23]

5 minutes ago, rackcs said:

You accusing me of something here partner?

Feel free to check out above, friend, albeit I'm still not sold on Nacho.

If you want an Other gone, vote me.

If you want to scum hunt, I'd tell you not to waste your time.

[MWil23]

Forge I also find very fascinating:

14 hours ago, Forge said:

If this is true, i feel like this may preclude Rack from being patient zero of the syph. It doesn't mean he's not something else (including potentially patient zero of one of the other diseases) but I dont' think that he would be patient zero for the syph. Dysentery and Cholera are contracted from bad food and water, yeah? Which would make sense for the patient zeroes to be at the bar or the poker table (or if they started in a non standard position), while the Syph would make sense to be one of the individuals with the working women. @theuntouchable thoughts? 

Trying to buddy up to Touch, go with the theory, subtly try to clear Rack

13 hours ago, Forge said:

Based on the quote, it looks like there are a few ways of getting them (voting the wrong person, blood from scum specifically in the quote, or spending too much time with certain people, though I don't know how that is avoidable at all) . So I'm curious about the syphilis one more than anything. Because that's an actual communicable disease, and the quote from pwny was that you could catch one of these diseases "from a visitor in the night". If there is some sort of conversion mechanic going on, I'm not so sure it's all three of the diseases. I'm wondering if one is a an "other" with a conversion mechanic (syphilis patient zero), while contracting the others may potentially kill you or weaken you down the road? I don't know. 

Trying to place blame on an "other" trying to kill/weaken down the road, after I've all but claimed other.

On 6/11/2019 at 10:53 PM, Forge said:

NVM, just saw in malfs post how he died. Looks like a vengeful... Which i, myself find particularly interesting... Which means counselor likely was a scum hit

Looks vengeful/likely a scum hit.

On 6/11/2019 at 10:50 PM, Forge said:

Counselor was killed with a bottle... Just random flavor, or intentional? Was someone talking about being a bartender earlier? What about our starting positions? 

Subtly shifts the blame on me, an other. So, which is it? A scum hit, or an other hit?

Forge has also been relatively quiet up until this point, not contributing a whole lot or attempting to scum hunt.

 

 

[rackcs]

Imma be honest here and say that I'm kinda buying mwil's thing. I'm not sure hes being totally truthful about his ability itself but based on his reactions I buy that he's actually other and not scum. I think I'd be more willing to go nacho here.

[theuntouchable]

What exactly is your point NaCl

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, theuntouchable said:

What exactly is your point NaCl

My point is that, based upon what I've claimed, whether it's the beginning of the game (soft) on being other and my win con being to take over the bar for Dome (just survive to the end) on P. 20-22, soft claiming "low key" and referencing Loki, which Swag picked up on, and then voting Squire/continuing to push him, using language that implied I was VERY confident in him being scum, and then calling Orca out for his ridiculous flipping from Squire to Counselor AND his rationale (see last page on my monologue), should give me enough benefit of the doubt to show my propensity for scum hunting and voting.

Throw in my hard claim about my N1 ability, the timeline/reaction/posts that I quoted after (stayed on Squire until the suggestion of a bomb, then flipped back on him after an unvote to give me time to think, also stating my rationale as to WHY I flipped back on him), and Squire pushing me all the way up until he died and flipped scum plus voting for me BIG TIME the entire day before.

Throw in the fact that I was pushed into a duel with someone's ability, Counselor the VERY next day was pushed in as well, Orca (scum) knew about it/did it, then DENIED doing it to me, and Counselor flipped Civ.

Take a look at who else was pushing Counselor and trying to subtly push blame on me.

Also, the fact that Nacho wants to vote for me, while believing that I'm OTHER, without any justification other than "Thirds can also be scum" is lazy and not trying to scum hunt or contribute whatsoever. He also voted James and Woz into Dome's hat, which I'm betting is so that he can continue to fly completely under the radar like he has most of the game.

Personally, I'm betting on 1-2 of the 3 being scum, based off of interactions (or lack thereof) and voting: 

*Rackcs

*Nacho

*Forge

Forge plays REALLY low key most of the game, and then he throws that string of subtle hypothesis/not so subtle implications and trying for the subtle clear on Rack while implicating me on a scum hit, while contradicting himself on "Other" and the disease spreading.

If you vote me, I'll flip Other, but you seem to have your mind made up. 

 

[theuntouchable]

26 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

My point is that, based upon what I've claimed, whether it's the beginning of the game (soft) on being other and my win con being to take over the bar for Dome (just survive to the end) on P. 20-22, soft claiming "low key" and referencing Loki, which Swag picked up on, and then voting Squire/continuing to push him, using language that implied I was VERY confident in him being scum, and then calling Orca out for his ridiculous flipping from Squire to Counselor AND his rationale (see last page on my monologue), should give me enough benefit of the doubt to show my propensity for scum hunting and voting.

Throw in my hard claim about my N1 ability, the timeline/reaction/posts that I quoted after (stayed on Squire until the suggestion of a bomb, then flipped back on him after an unvote to give me time to think, also stating my rationale as to WHY I flipped back on him), and Squire pushing me all the way up until he died and flipped scum plus voting for me BIG TIME the entire day before.

Throw in the fact that I was pushed into a duel with someone's ability, Counselor the VERY next day was pushed in as well, Orca (scum) knew about it/did it, then DENIED doing it to me, and Counselor flipped Civ.

Take a look at who else was pushing Counselor and trying to subtly push blame on me.

Also, the fact that Nacho wants to vote for me, while believing that I'm OTHER, without any justification other than "Thirds can also be scum" is lazy and not trying to scum hunt or contribute whatsoever. He also voted James and Woz into Dome's hat, which I'm betting is so that he can continue to fly completely under the radar like he has most of the game.

Personally, I'm betting on 1-2 of the 3 being scum, based off of interactions (or lack thereof) and voting: 

*Rackcs

*Nacho

*Forge

Forge plays REALLY low key most of the game, and then he throws that string of subtle hypothesis/not so subtle implications and trying for the subtle clear on Rack while implicating me on a scum hit, while contradicting himself on "Other" and the disease spreading.

If you vote me, I'll flip Other, but you seem to have your mind made up. 

 

You are asking me to give you the benefit of the doubt because of your claims (which mean nothing) and you’re scum hunting (but you’ve gone in several asinine loops to paint me as scum). 

So again, why should I give you benefit of the doubt?

[bcb1213]

Mwil the tough part for me is... are you a friendly other, possibly, possibly not 

I nailed three scum last game but I was not a friendly other.  I get you want to appear pro town, like I was trying last game but you keep hammering that like it clears you of having a non friendly wc.  

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, theuntouchable said:

You are asking me to give you the benefit of the doubt because of your claims (which mean nothing) and you’re scum hunting (but you’ve gone in several asinine loops to paint me as scum). 

...and that I was thrown into the middle of a duel D1, which Orca also clearly orchestrated the next day with Counselor, and then Orca denied doing so with me

...and that I was pushed big time by scum (Squire)

That above is a lot of WIFOM/trying for a LOL clear if I were scum, especially since I claimed other almost straight out of the gate (P. 20-22)

...and that I voted Squire and stuck with him, plus the certainty of the language that I used, which back up/give credence to the claim that I made about my N1 interaction with him

...and that I was truthful from the get go way back on P. 72-74 about having dysentery, way before your theory about how it's spread

1 minute ago, theuntouchable said:

So again, why should I give you benefit of the doubt?

You should know me well enough by now to know that, as I've said in about every game that I play, I try my best to stir things up so as to get reactions from others (see: me trying to intentionally piss off Matt at the beginning of the game) and then proceed from there. While blatantly interacting with you and having a back and forth exchange, the other stuff/people who tried to fly under the radar/buddy up to you became very apparent with the Nacho/Forge/Rack trio.

Given my track record on voting Squire and being the first to push Orca, Malf then joining in with me to an extent to back me/my theory, and then Orca going FULL TREASURE MODE AND him flipping scum, that's another indicator. That's a lot of attention and WIFOM to put on "ourselves as scum" as you seem to read me.

On 6/11/2019 at 12:42 PM, Dome said:

“Get out there bird brains!!!!!” someone in the crowd yelled.

A swift boot to Macaw’s tail feathers sent him out into the street. 

@Counselor has joined the Duel!!!

Also, Orca using this 4 hours after you was an interesting play.

Notice, he then flips from squire (fellow scum) to Counselor after I engage him/call him out.

On 6/11/2019 at 1:51 PM, MWil23 said:

The more I think about it, the more I think that shoving an extra man in the duel could definitely be a scum power. Aside from the absence of night kills last night, what a great way to LOL clear one of your own (I'm not accusing you @Counselor, just go with me on my logic).

*Squire is a dead man. Pretty much everyone knows it.

*You get a LOL clear of your own as scum by throwing someone into the middle you know won't get lynched.

*Then, when you need it, you use that power again but get someone in there who is Town with a power/you tip the scale in your favor.

TBH, on a totally other note, The Orca/Counselor argument looks fake and manufactured to me, and the type of stuff someone will cook up in chatty. Let's apply some fake heat and get into an argument that will be forgotten about tomorrow, but give ourselves enough credibility to last several more days/draw attention away from the real thing.

Here's when he flips

On 6/11/2019 at 2:10 PM, The Orca said:

Why would I need to fake an arguement?

Do you think my push of him D1 was also fake?

I'd love to lynch Counselor 

 

He flips to "prove a point", and I call him on it right away:

On 6/11/2019 at 2:14 PM, MWil23 said:

I said it appears to be.

Unsure

So, for the record, you are actually using this as an opportunity, in an extremely slanted toward almost guaranteed scum vote in squire, for you to move onto Counselor, who has no shot at being lynched today?

That makes me go from "this is a theory about it being a scum move" to "hmmm, I think I may be onto something".

...and Malf almost immediately backs me:

On 6/11/2019 at 2:16 PM, Malfatron said:

yeah the most damning thing is....when players linked together by another are civ-mafia (counselor-orca?) the mafia will sometimes respond by going against that civ to prove they arent connected

Turns out, both of us were correct.

After the series of unvotes, I post this:

On 6/11/2019 at 3:14 PM, MWil23 said:

Whatever

The odds of a successful scum 

*Invest

*Investing correctly in a bomb

*Instigator/duel and then NOT VOTING for the bomb while encouraging town to pile on

*Silencing Squire with another night move

...and then us finding that possibility out...is not high.

IF Squire flips bomb, then Touch and Swag are in huge trouble anyway for abstaining from the vote.

Squire

Orca then goes from pushing/appealing for everyone to go join him with Counselor to full blown treasure:

On 6/11/2019 at 3:25 PM, The Orca said:

I will provide the wealth from my robbery days

Let me show you all some proof

It's also worth noting, that Pickle is liking a lot of his posts and with him at points throughout this charade. 

On 6/11/2019 at 3:30 PM, The Orca said:

Vote Counselor and the treasure is all yours. The wealth, Dome's Women, The disease, the misery, the fame, the entirety of my existence will be yours. For one glorious kill. Send Counselor into oblivion with lead between his eyes. Do me this favor and I will show you the world

Another like from Pickle

At 3:43 he posts another gif of a snake dancing woman, which I can't quote on my work computer, but Pickle also likes that. Orca also uses the words "being converted", which Malf seems to pick up on right away:

On 6/11/2019 at 3:49 PM, Malfatron said:

Remember, Orca did claim OTHER...this may be the beginning of the "other/conversion" theories running rampant.

On 6/11/2019 at 4:03 PM, Pickle Rick said:

counselor 

And Pickle then flips Squire to Counselor, maybe trying to gain momentum?

On 6/11/2019 at 4:05 PM, The Orca said:

Its my treasure

Pickle Likes this

On 6/11/2019 at 7:06 PM, The Orca said:

He has the treasure 

I didnt know it was him to begin with

Is it obvious

Nope. I also cant throw someone every day

I will have two more throws if you all want it, I will add to towns numbers, you can also kill me whenever you want to take a safe kill

I'm at your alls wim from here out. Put me in the shootout or not

Give me the treasure

Vote Counselor 

Admitting to throwing Counselor in

On 6/11/2019 at 7:10 PM, MWil23 said:

Orca you throw me in yesterday?

I come out and ask him straight up

On 6/11/2019 at 7:12 PM, The Orca said:

Nope

Blatant denial

 

[MWil23]

8 minutes ago, bcb1213 said:

Mwil the tough part for me is... are you a friendly other, possibly, possibly not 

I nailed three scum last game but I was not a friendly other.  I get you want to appear pro town, like I was trying last game but you keep hammering that like it clears you of having a non friendly wc.  

I understand that. If I survive, I win, so it's pretty simple for me.

I'd also say that I'm playing the odds/math here, especially with what I've done so far. If there are only 4 bandits (per me and Malf's original conversation) and triple the town/other, I'd be better served, especially after 2 bandits drop, going town.

Throw in my night cap ability that prevents a kill, and it doesn't make much sense for me to go scum.

 

[MWil23]

Pickle's late night interactions with me were interesting:

15 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

@MWil23

You want that gun, pick it up. I wish you would.

I decide to go all in with a bluff for the 2nd time:

15 hours ago, MWil23 said:

1. I’m not pissed. This is just a game. I’m enjoying it. I always enjoy it even though I’m consistently not great.

2. I’m irritated that you’re wrong and I’m 💯 other.

3. I’m willing to duel you right now, and if I lose, flip other to out you as wrong/probably scum if you are going to continue to ignore things I said I had yesterday like dysentery and what people said the diseases meant.

I have a feeling Touch will immediately call me out on #3, but I want to see who else reacts/how they react

15 hours ago, Pickle Rick said:

I dont follow this logic here partner 

More importantly than this is Nacho liking it. He's been very quiet but is obviously around and REALLY wants to see the results for the next day's duel

15 hours ago, theuntouchable said:

So you would gladly give up your wincon to prove me wrong?? 

Touch, as expected, immediately and rightfully calls me on it. More intriguing/importantly though, Nacho likes it almost instantly.

11 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

You are as swaggy as ever.

I ain't no bandit but I got quite a large gun under my loins.

Care to test me, partner?

For whatever reason, Nacho then reacts very defensively and engages swag, claiming he has a gun and daring him for a test/duel.

11 hours ago, SwAg said:

Reckon I ain’t afraid to die for Old Man Dome.

Last post of the night

3 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

I reckon we should just burn the third party at this juncture , Mwil.

First post of the day. It's pretty clear he wants me gone, without caring to scum hunt and happy to FAKE flying under the radar with inactivity.

2 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Thirds can also be scum

No reasoning/backing other than "can be" and "get rid of the 3rd party".

NACHO

 

[TheKillerNacho]

2 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Pickle's late night interactions with me were interesting:

I decide to go all in with a bluff for the 2nd time:

I have a feeling Touch will immediately call me out on #3, but I want to see who else reacts/how they react

More importantly than this is Nacho liking it. He's been very quiet but is obviously around and REALLY wants to see the results for the next day's duel

Touch, as expected, immediately and rightfully calls me on it. More intriguing/importantly though, Nacho likes it almost instantly.

For whatever reason, Nacho then reacts very defensively and engages swag, claiming he has a gun and daring him for a test/duel.

Last post of the night

First post of the day. It's pretty clear he wants me gone, without caring to scum hunt and happy to FAKE flying under the radar with inactivity.

No reasoning/backing other than "can be" and "get rid of the 3rd party".

NACHO

 

You are an admitted third. I don't envy your position and was in it myself once. And you know what? I lied about my win condition in that game and nearly won because of it. Even if I trust that you're not a Bandit I cannot in good conscience ignore that you don't share my alignment.

[MWil23]

12 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

You are an admitted third.

Correct

12 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

I don't envy your position and was in it myself once.

Interesting response

12 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

And you know what? I lied about my win condition in that game and nearly won because of it.

I didn't lie about mine. Perhaps if you told the truth, you'd have actually been involved in the win. I may lose as well, but I'm going for broke here. I've been aggressively honest all game. If I lose, so be it.

12 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

Even if I trust that you're not a Bandit

So, you admit that I'm an Other and yet still try to play the "bandit" card.

12 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

I cannot in good conscience ignore that you don't share my alignment.

I've proven myself to be more town friendly and scum hunting than you. I'm sure I'm not the only one who notices your failure to address my plethora of other evidence based upon your interactions/lack of interactions and your responses as well.

TBH, last game's scum Nacho had similar game play as well.

[Forge]

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Forge I also find very fascinating:

Trying to buddy up to Touch, go with the theory, subtly try to clear Rack

Trying to place blame on an "other" trying to kill/weaken down the road, after I've all but claimed other.

Looks vengeful/likely a scum hit.

Subtly shifts the blame on me, an other. So, which is it? A scum hit, or an other hit?

Forge has also been relatively quiet up until this point, not contributing a whole lot or attempting to scum hunt.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Trying to buddy up to Touch, go with the theory, subtly try to clear Rack

Or, you know, asking someone active and with a brain in thread their thoughts. Oh yeah, and I was certainly trying to clear rack even though I said specifically didn't clear him of anything besides potentially being patient zero for syph lol

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

Trying to place blame on an "other" trying to kill/weaken down the road, after I've all but claimed other.

 

Holy bad reading comprehension, batman. How did you get that from what I've said? Why are you taking things so personally? That's actually not what I said at all. This is the second time now that you have done that (the first being my theory on finding Couselor's killer). I'm actually curious if anyone else took that quote the way you have taken it here, because wow, it's off. Let's look at my quote: 

Quote

Based on the quote, it looks like there are a few ways of getting them (voting the wrong person, blood from scum specifically in the quote, or spending too much time with certain people, though I don't know how that is avoidable at all) . So I'm curious about the syphilis one more than anything. Because that's an actual communicable disease, and the quote from pwny was that you could catch one of these diseases "from a visitor in the night". If there is some sort of conversion mechanic going on, I'm not so sure it's all three of the diseases. I'm wondering if one is a an "other" with a conversion mechanic (syphilis patient zero), while contracting the others may potentially kill you or weaken you down the road? I don't know. 

Read that again. You realize that the "others" I'm talking about are the disease's right? Essentially, the theory I posited here is that the Syph is the big one we would have to worry about as a communicable disease / converter mechanic. Cholera and Dysentery aren't contagious in that regard. So my theory was that if you contracted Cholera / Dysentery, those diseases would eventually weaken or kill you, but there isn't really a patient zero for them. 

2 hours ago, MWil23 said:

On 6/11/2019 at 7:53 PM, Forge said:

NVM, just saw in malfs post how he died. Looks like a vengeful... Which i, myself find particularly interesting... Which means counselor likely was a scum hit

Looks vengeful/likely a scum hit.

On 6/11/2019 at 7:50 PM, Forge said:

Counselor was killed with a bottle... Just random flavor, or intentional? Was someone talking about being a bartender earlier? What about our starting positions? 

Subtly shifts the blame on me, an other. So, which is it? A scum hit, or an other hit?

Forge has also been relatively quiet up until this point, not contributing a whole lot or attempting to scum hunt.

LOL what? Wow, this is so full of fail.  Okay, one, you do realize that I'm talking about two different hits there, right? The first one is in regards to Malf, which was clearly a vengeful hit from squire based on the write up. The second was Counselor.

Also, how did I shift blame to an "other"? say what?  This is you taking things very personally, and I find it fascinating that you have apparently such a guilty conscience that you keep appropriating my comments to be talking about you specifically. that's a really bad look. I brought up a theory, something that could and should be talked about, based on the flavor of the kill (oh, fyi, that is scum hunting lol) - Counselor was killed with a bottle, that is a fact. Someone had previously mentioned that they were a bartender - I never said who that was, just that I remembered someone saying that. I also brought up the  starting positions (as some people started at the bar) could have something to do with the actual flavor of the kill and how it was done. That didn't insinuate you specifically, but rather several people (essentially anyone who started at the bar and the individual who claimed the bartender). 

I also love the fact that you brought up my comment about Malf's kill, and apparently just blew right by the most important part of that comment. 

[Forge]

 

21 minutes ago, TheKillerNacho said:

You are an admitted third. I don't envy your position and was in it myself once. And you know what? I lied about my win condition in that game and nearly won because of it. Even if I trust that you're not a Bandit I cannot in good conscience ignore that you don't share my alignment.

Mwil wouldn't lie about his role or anything. That's not like him. He is Emily Prentiss, and he's going to flip purple because he's "undercover" 

[MWil23]

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Any time you can get a Jeff Goldblum gif in, it's a good day.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Or, you know, asking someone active and with a brain in thread their thoughts. Oh yeah, and I was certainly trying to clear rack even though I said specifically didn't clear him of anything besides potentially being patient zero for syph lol

Why so suddenly active and willing to subtly implicate me. Why not come out and say it was ME instead of "If I remember correctly...someone said something about a bartender"

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

 

You're not alone

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Holy bad reading comprehension, batman. How did you get that from what I've said?

Other has multiple meanings.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Why are you taking things so personally?

Because you subtly implicated me as scum/accused me and now my life/win con is on the line. As for taking it personally, not at all man. It's a game. I'm legit having fun, I'm serious.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

That's actually not what I said at all. This is the second time now that you have done that (the first being my theory on finding Couselor's killer). I'm actually curious if anyone else took that quote the way you have taken it here, because wow, it's off. Let's look at my quote: 

Read that again. You realize that the "others" I'm talking about are the disease's right?

No, I thought you meant "others" as in "other aligned".

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Essentially, the theory I posited here is that the Syph is the big one we would have to worry about as a communicable disease / converter mechanic.

Ok, that makes sense. I figured others was "other aligned".

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Cholera and Dysentery aren't contagious in that regard. So my theory was that if you contracted Cholera / Dysentery, those diseases would eventually weaken or kill you, but there isn't really a patient zero for them. 

Which, again, would give me some leeway in that I admitted multiple times to dysentery. 

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

LOL what? Wow, this is so full of fail.  Okay, one, you do realize that I'm talking about two different hits there, right? The first one is in regards to Malf, which was clearly a vengeful hit from squire based on the write up. The second was Counselor.

NVM, just saw in malfs post how he died. Looks like a vengeful... Which i, myself find particularly interesting... Which means counselor likely was a scum hit

I read it that you said Counselor was the vengeful hit/scum hit.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

Also, how did I shift blame to an "other"? say what?  This is you taking things very personally, and I find it fascinating that you have apparently such a guilty conscience that you keep appropriating my comments to be talking about you specifically.

It comes back to the "Other" confusion.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

that's a really bad look. I brought up a theory, something that could and should be talked about, based on the flavor of the kill (oh, fyi, that is scum hunting lol) - Counselor was killed with a bottle, that is a fact. Someone had previously mentioned that they were a bartender - I never said who that was, just that I remembered someone saying that.

Considering I CLAIMED my intention as a bartender, I find it shocking that you wouldn't remember it was me, unless you hadn't been reading at all.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

I also brought up the  starting positions (as some people started at the bar) could have something to do with the actual flavor of the kill and how it was done. That didn't insinuate you specifically, but rather several people (essentially anyone who started at the bar and the individual who claimed the bartender). 

Again, my starting position, as clearly articulated in my early writeup, was at the POKER TABLE. If you're going to bring up starting positions and then implicate someone, do so accurately. Now you can understand why I would take your insinuations a bit personally.

14 minutes ago, Forge said:

I also love the fact that you brought up my comment about Malf's kill, and apparently just blew right by the most important part of that comment. 

Which part exactly was that?

17 minutes ago, Forge said:

Mwil wouldn't lie about his role or anything.

After hard claiming and soft claiming other as far back as P. 20-22? No I wouldn't. That would be pretty easy to go back, prove, and get a quick lynch.

17 minutes ago, Forge said:

That's not like him. He is Emily Prentiss, and he's going to flip purple because he's "undercover" 

After being dealt scum, investigated N1, and having a gun on my possession with an active shooter loose in Criminal Minds mafia, it was about my only play. Also, I forget, was it Derek Morgan that bought it for about 3-4 days?