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gopherwrestler

The WR battle of 2019

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5 minutes ago, Klomp said:

I predict that Diggs and Thielen will win the battle for the starting spots.

Hot take! 

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1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

So he’s in the middle third of the NFL in play action attempts and has been the best at it in the opportunities he’s been given. 

Perhaps your evaluation of him as a play action passer is wrong. There are other articles out there with NFL scouts saying that he’s so deceptive because his handoff and play action fake look identical. A quick google search will turn up plenty of material praising play action as one of Kirk’s biggest strengths. 

2017 the Vikings were the #1 play action team in the NFL and apparently ran it off of 30% of their plays.  Obviously did not do that this past year in terms of amount, they could run the ball obviously better in 2017 and did attempt it far more than last year 2018.  So maybe it is that, if you cannot run it is simply not as effective and if the Vikings can find a way to run better it will matter more.  I do not care about the completion percentage as proof of play action passing greatness or ball handling ability, it just means you are accurate passing.  

I think it matters if one actually believes the fake on TV much less in person if you see it.  Almost all of the time the ball never even touches the RB and is just motioned in that direction, Manning or Brees etc one actually questioned where the ball is and the ball and hand does make contact with the RB more often than not.  On Cousin's fakes few if any actually questions if he has the ball or not much less touches the RB literally.  That is a skilled play fake when they are right up in there I feel.  Thus he is not that good at it in my eyes at doing it.  But sure on paper statistically he is good if that is how you grade things.

 

How many of these fakes came in a stretch zone run play or a stretch bootleg action?  Or how many came out of the shot gun and how many fakes were under center?

To me he is no Peyton Manning and he does not change the game with his play action fakes, Manning did.  Cousins is not great off script or scramble plays so on a stretch bootleg if you cannot create a little with your legs it can be a problem.  Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Matt Ryan all can either get to the spot on a stretch play, can create in the pocket when things break down or are simply surgical in terms of play action passing.  They contract the RB and fool defenses making it count to win games.  

 

Will see how Kirk does this year with hopefully a better run game to help the effectiveness of it.  Sure you can find people that say he is great at play action passes, I simply do not agree in terms of the fake itself as being the judge of good or not.  His fakes do not fake anyone and rarely can one not see where the ball is.  

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Laquon Treadwell, what will it take to light a fire under this guy?

 

Last year of his contract, is potentially going to be out of the NFL shortly if he does not improve.  Vikings moving to a two TE system potentially where there are not many three WR sets. 

I mean the guy came into the league and was supposed to be a great blocker.  Where is that toughness?  Where are his great hands?  Sure he is not a speed guy but you could learn something from one of the best route runners in the NFL in Thielen.  Heck as a duo they are arguably the best route running combo in the NFL.  Learn something from them and get open, play with passion and make tough aggressive plays catching the ball, after the catch running and blocking.  Got be the physical force in the end zone on jump ball situations which is something the Vikings need and honestly why they drafted him.  I would not be surprised though if Zylstra or most likely Jordan Taylor take that spot of the big physical jump ball receiver but hopefully Treadwell can finally be that type of guy.

Will be curious if Treadwell finally puts it together this year with the obvious motivation of it is now or never for his career in many ways.  Especially in terms of him and this organization.  

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9 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Laquon Treadwell, what will it take to light a fire under this guy?

 

Last year of his contract, is potentially going to be out of the NFL shortly if he does not improve.  Vikings moving to a two TE system potentially where there are not many three WR sets. 

I mean the guy came into the league and was supposed to be a great blocker.  Where is that toughness?  Where are his great hands?  Sure he is not a speed guy but you could learn something from one of the best route runners in the NFL in Thielen.  Heck as a duo they are arguably the best route running combo in the NFL.  Learn something from them and get open, play with passion and make tough aggressive plays catching the ball, after the catch running and blocking.  Got be the physical force in the end zone on jump ball situations which is something the Vikings need and honestly why they drafted him.  I would not be surprised though if Zylstra or most likely Jordan Taylor take that spot of the big physical jump ball receiver but hopefully Treadwell can finally be that type of guy.

Will be curious if Treadwell finally puts it together this year with the obvious motivation of it is now or never for his career in many ways.  Especially in terms of him and this organization.  

At this point, Treadwell is what he is: a bust. The coaches have never questioned his motivation. They've basically said he just isn't smart enough to get it (without using those words). 

"Laquon needs to get out of his own way," Zimmer said, via NFL.com. "He's a guy that works extremely hard, probably doesn't do things the right way all of the time. We'll be in training camp and he'll run the stadium steps at night, which is not helping him for practice the next day. He thinks he's trying to get better, trying to get better, he's just going about it the wrong way. So he needs to get out of his own way."

At this point, the team really needs to cut bait. He offers nothing anywhere on the squad. He doesn't play special teams. He doesn't catch passes. He doesn't block. I don't know if you could even classify him as an ok NFL WR5. Certainly not for what he's getting paid. 

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42 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

At this point, Treadwell is what he is: a bust. The coaches have never questioned his motivation. They've basically said he just isn't smart enough to get it (without using those words). 

"Laquon needs to get out of his own way," Zimmer said, via NFL.com. "He's a guy that works extremely hard, probably doesn't do things the right way all of the time. We'll be in training camp and he'll run the stadium steps at night, which is not helping him for practice the next day. He thinks he's trying to get better, trying to get better, he's just going about it the wrong way. So he needs to get out of his own way."

At this point, the team really needs to cut bait. He offers nothing anywhere on the squad. He doesn't play special teams. He doesn't catch passes. He doesn't block. I don't know if you could even classify him as an ok NFL WR5. Certainly not for what he's getting paid. 

For Laquon that is just sad then.  Again you have two of the best route runners in the league on your team and cannot learn from them?  The kid has talent just look at his college tape especially JR season.  He went up and made contested catches, blocked, scored TDs and made game changing plays.  For him to take this so lightly is crazy to me.  It is his life and career on the line and to not work hard at improving so he can stay in the league and keep being able to make millions of dollars is insane to me.  

The advice of coach Zimmer though, he is the coach if he is going about things the wrong way and actually does work hard (which is hard to believe) then teach him how to work correctly to improve on the field play.  Sure Laquon is an adult but there is a reason why coaches are hired on football teams, to teach players.  

 

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The coaches only have limited time to teach them.  It's on Laquon to get the right people surrounding him and pushing him in the time he's away from the practice facility.  

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, swede700 said:

The coaches only have limited time to teach them.  It's on Laquon to get the right people surrounding him and pushing him in the time he's away from the practice facility.  

Is the NFL like college?  No in terms of amount of time allowed to coach players.  Assistants can get together with players any time you want correct?  Sure there might be some collective bargaining rules on official practice time but that is only as a total team or unit I assume.  Not to mention teammates can get together any time they wish.  Maybe it is the people Laquon is around or the trainers but come on, you are teammates with two of the best route runners in the NFL and you get nothing from them when route running is very needed for you to create separation?  

And again if he is "running the stadium bleachers" yet is not getting things done on the practice field and is doing things the wrong way talk to him about it.  But maybe they have and he just ignores it and that is what he means by get out of his own way.  

 

Oh and these men do this for a living, how it is not a main focus in their life of getting better and staying in the league I have no idea.  

Edited by Ozzy

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Laquon comes across as a guy who never had to work at being the top option on the field. Before the NFL, he’s always been the de facto WR1 where ever he’s been. And I don’t think he knows how to handle not being the guy. 

Unfortunately, I don’t think he’s ever fully recovered from that horrific injury in college. I believe that the Vikings took a gamble the the further way he got from the injury, the more explosion and quickness he’d regain. But that hasn’t seemed to have happened. 

I think Treadwell’s only chance at recovering any type of career to to develop and embrace a roll as a big bodied, chains moving possession receiver. Similar to what Kenny Britt did after his multiple injuries. 

He is only 24 years old, the youngest non-rookie receiver on the team, so the light could still come on. But I think this training camp and preseason will be the last shot for him in purple. 

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Assistants can't get together with the players any time during the offseason (which is often when players do a lot of their development, such as working on route running).  Now, it's his failure if he doesn't get together with Diggs and Thielen during the offseason and work on things like that, but the assistants can't sit there and constantly coach a guy during the OTAs and training camp, because they have lots of guys to coach, not just him.  

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Treadwell is a better than average down field blocker.  I don't question his toughness or his desire.  I just think he needs to get out of his own head.  He reminds me of Jon Lester, pitcher for the Cubs who is so afraid of throwing to first base that he doesn't do it.  Now, keeping a base runner honest by their being a threat of a pick off needs to be in a pitchers arsenal.  Runners on first, when Lester is on the mound will take a lead almost halfway to 2nd!!  They know he won't throw to first.

Treadwell, is able to block, run (not fast), use his body (better than he used to be), compete for a catch...the problem is he is so afraid of dropping the ball that he actually drops the ball.  He needs a sports psychologist or hypnotist, or released.  My guess it will be the later and not the former.

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2 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

Treadwell is a better than average down field blocker.  I don't question his toughness or his desire.  I just think he needs to get out of his own head.  He reminds me of Jon Lester, pitcher for the Cubs who is so afraid of throwing to first base that he doesn't do it.  Now, keeping a base runner honest by their being a threat of a pick off needs to be in a pitchers arsenal.  Runners on first, when Lester is on the mound will take a lead almost halfway to 2nd!!  They know he won't throw to first.

Treadwell, is able to block, run (not fast), use his body (better than he used to be), compete for a catch...the problem is he is so afraid of dropping the ball that he actually drops the ball.  He needs a sports psychologist or hypnotist, or released.  My guess it will be the later and not the former.

Maybe he should go to Nike for assistance...they did wonders for Troy Williamson.  xD

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Posted (edited)

i didn't like the treadwell pick when we drafted him and wanted michael thomas instead. i guess thomas coming from a run-heavy program in ohio state dissuaded a lot of teams but his metrics (percentage of team yards, etc.) were favourable to doctson, fuller and treadwell. thomas also showed route running ability, ability to make contested catches, etc. on tape whereas treadwell was never an outstanding route runner and even before his injury wasn't a great athlete. on top of it all despite his size he never showed great ability in contested catch situations either.

 

as far as i can tell treadwell got drafted in the first round because he was young, had the chance to bounce back from his injury and had a "dog" mentality. i'd have preferred if we drafted the receiver that actually showed he could play the position well.

 

if you couldn't tell from my those comments, i hope we cut treadwell and move on with the other young guys. treadwell might be able to turn into a serviceable possession receiver down the line but we don't have to roster him until he's able to do that.

Edited by whitehops
doctson not parker smh

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I was a Michael Thomas guy as well, but didn't hate the Treadwell pick and didn't have them separated by very much.

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1 hour ago, JDBrocks said:

I was a Michael Thomas guy as well, but didn't hate the Treadwell pick and didn't have them separated by very much.

I don’t think anyone had Treadwell, Doctson, and Thomas separated by much. 

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36 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

I don’t think anyone had Treadwell, Doctson, and Thomas separated by much. 

fuller, doctson and treadwell were all "consensus" first round picks while thomas was widely projected as a second round pick.

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