Thoughts and Observations: Week 5 Raiders

[WindyCity]

The truth is that Nagy deserves a ton of heat. He is an offensive genius that 

1. Has a hot garbage offense.

2. Has not developed the QB.

 

The 2 most significant reasons he was hired he has failed at to this point.

[Nads786]

7 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

The truth is that Nagy deserves a ton of heat. He is an offensive genius that 

1. Has a hot garbage offense.

2. Has not developed the QB.

 

The 2 most significant reasons he was hired he has failed at to this point.

This is an interesting way to look at things. I've seen very good coaches fail at other organizations primarily because of a lack of talent. How good was Chuck Pagano's defense in Indy during his time here? I think you are expecting Nagy to create something out of nothing. 

He deserves heat for the following:

• Switching Cody from center to guard - failure 
• Inaccurately accessing the offensive line 
• Putting too much on Mitch's plate when he isn't ready
• Having the team unprepared for playing in London 

[topwop1]

16 minutes ago, Nads786 said:

This is an interesting way to look at things. I've seen very good coaches fail at other organizations primarily because of a lack of talent. How good was Chuck Pagano's defense in Indy during his time here? I think you are expecting Nagy to create something out of nothing. 

He deserves heat for the following:

• Switching Cody from center to guard - failure 
• Inaccurately accessing the offensive line 
• Putting too much on Mitch's plate when he isn't ready
• Having the team unprepared for playing in London 

It's the only way to really look at it since Nagy was brought here to do mainly one thing, and that was to make the Bears offense a strength and one of the top units in the league.  I know these things take time and he's only just over a quarter in his 2nd season as head coach but to have the offense ranked only ahead of the Dolphins and Jets right now is pretty damn pathetic.

He took this job full well knowing that Mitch would be his QB and since he's been here they've added weapons such as ARob, Gabriel, Miller, Burton and Wims plus Daniels on the OL.  Simply put it should be better than it is right now.

[topwop1]

36 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

The truth is that Nagy deserves a ton of heat. He is an offensive genius that 

1. Has a hot garbage offense.

2. Has not developed the QB.

 

The 2 most significant reasons he was hired he has failed at to this point.

I really like Nagy but he deserves fair criticism for this and same with Pace.  We were all spoon fed the idea that the hiring of Nagy would make this offense relevant and exciting to watch.

I don't want to say this but here goes...I feel that this team would have been just as successful last season and so far to this point with John Fox as the HC and Loggains as the OC over Nagy if you gave him all those additions on offense and Khalil Mack on D.  There I said it.

I mean what has Nagy really done?  Fangio ran the D last year and Pagano picked up right after him.  The offense still sucks.

Edited October 8, 2019 by topwop1

[Sugashane]

4 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

This is a really dumb statement and flat out untrue.

Way to back up your statement...

Tru had a crazy game vs TB and then was mediocre the rest of the season. Taking that outlier out and you'll see just how pedestrian the offense was.  Defense is what made that team special. He absolutely showed potential but if you're saying the offense was better over any 5 game stretch I'd love to hear how. 

 

Minshrew isn't special and has a 9/1 TD/INT ratio, Fournette has been playing the best he ever has (while I still think he is nothing special), top 10 in rushing, passing, and total yards, etc. When did Chicago do that last year exactly?

Unless you're trying to make the case that their offensive roster is more talented than what the Bears had/have and if you're doing that I'm not sure what to tell you. 

[Sugashane]

57 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

The truth is that Nagy deserves a ton of heat. He is an offensive genius that 

1. Has a hot garbage offense.

2. Has not developed the QB.

 

The 2 most significant reasons he was hired he has failed at to this point.

This was my argument last year and it's only being magnified this year.

 

Though admittedly I was more than happy to give him more time but seeing this kind of regression and ineptitude is crazy.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Sugashane

[MonserinNC]

6 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Way to back up your statement...

Tru had a crazy game vs TB and then was mediocre the rest of the season. Taking that outlier out and you'll see just how pedestrian the offense was.  Defense is what made that team special. He absolutely showed potential but if you're saying the offense was better over any 5 game stretch I'd love to hear how. 

 

Minshrew isn't special and has a 9/1 TD/INT ratio, Fournette has been playing the best he ever has (while I still think he is nothing special), top 10 in rushing, passing, and total yards, etc. When did Chicago do that last year exactly?

Unless you're trying to make the case that their offensive roster is more talented than what the Bears had/have and if you're doing that I'm not sure what to tell you. 

Why are you saying Minshew isnt special though?? Haha

[Sugashane]

7 minutes ago, MonserinNC said:

Why are you saying Minshew isnt special though?? Haha

Flip has been scheming a lot of level concepts to let him see 2-3 reads on one side of the field, attacking every level and left/right/center and a consistent run game to keep defenses honest, etc. He isn't making Minshrew carry the team like Nagy has tried several times with Tru. Flip is making the game easier for Minshrew but to his credit he is making the smart reads and showing better accuracy and arm strength than I expected. 

 

Let me rephrase what I said. Minshrew can be a starter in the league but isn't ever going to be a real franchise QB IMO. He can be an Alex Smith kind of player IMO, which is more than good enough to win games and have some good seasons. Might be that kind of Dalton player used as a benchmark for other QBsbeing good enough or not. As a fan you'd want better than, but be really disappointed with worse than him. 

 

 

[WindyCity]

Nagy has the bye week to get the offense straightened out. If he can’t do it with 2 weeks to self scout, then it ain’t happening.

This offense is pathetic. It has too much talent to be pathetic,

[Superman(DH23)]

6 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Way to back up your statement...

Tru had a crazy game vs TB and then was mediocre the rest of the season. Taking that outlier out and you'll see just how pedestrian the offense was.  Defense is what made that team special. He absolutely showed potential but if you're saying the offense was better over any 5 game stretch I'd love to hear how. 

 

Minshrew isn't special and has a 9/1 TD/INT ratio, Fournette has been playing the best he ever has (while I still think he is nothing special), top 10 in rushing, passing, and total yards, etc. When did Chicago do that last year exactly?

Unless you're trying to make the case that their offensive roster is more talented than what the Bears had/have and if you're doing that I'm not sure what to tell you. 

You just made the case for me, Minshew has 9 TDs in 5 games.  In 5 games from TB to Detroit MT threw 18 TDs.  You can say that it was only TB, that's 6 TDs, still 12 in the other 4, say it's only TB and Detroit, that's still 7 in 3.  It was a 5 game stretch the offense averaged over 30 ppg, the QB threw 18 TDs, it was an incredible stretch that no, sorry, Flip.hasnt matched, and where was your attempting to prop Flip last year when he was coordinating a painfully avg offense that got him fired, and improved significantly after he was fired.  Flip can be your guy, and that's fine, but its asinine to compare what the Jags are doing right now, to what this Bears offense did before Trus injury last year.

[JAF-N72EX]

I don't have time tonight to get into this, but we need to separate Nagy's responsibilities as a head coach and play caller here for a moment when judging him right now because I feel like fans are combining both of them and passing judgment as head coach based on the offensive failures thus far. Hell, I may even be guilty of this from time to time.  

IMO, Nagy is a hell of a head coach who had a big hand in changing the culture and giving us fans real hope at a title for the first time since Lovie stated that beating the Packers were his first priority and we have lost 7 games in the last 2 years by less than 8 points.  Let's not forget that. 

However, he is not what we expected as a play caller so far. That said, we also need to remember that last year he had personal on the roster that didn't fit his running scheme and Mitch was NOT his pick at a QB as well. And all head coaches (especially those who are considered offensive minded coached) prefer to pick a QB of their choice who they believe fit their scheme the best. Mitch has the physical tools on paper to match Nagy's RPO but the mental tools and technique are not something you can teach over night and are a concern at this point. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by JustAnotherFan

[TB 1]

3 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

You just made the case for me, Minshew has 9 TDs in 5 games.  In 5 games from TB to Detroit MT threw 18 TDs.  You can say that it was only TB, that's 6 TDs, still 12 in the other 4, say it's only TB and Detroit, that's still 7 in 3.  It was a 5 game stretch the offense averaged over 30 ppg, the QB threw 18 TDs, it was an incredible stretch that no, sorry, Flip.hasnt matched, and where was your attempting to prop Flip last year when he was coordinating a painfully avg offense that got him fired, and improved significantly after he was fired.  Flip can be your guy, and that's fine, but its asinine to compare what the Jags are doing right now, to what this Bears offense did before Trus injury last year.

The problem is that the Bears offense keeps getting worse as Nagy's tenure goes on when it should have improved. This is now 12 straight games of average to below average play out of this unit with players handpicked for Nagy. The Bears are looking like a 8-8 team that had big expectations this year and with Hicks out the defense got pushed around but i thought Pagano should have played base with the way the Raiders were playing but instead played to much nickel defense.

[TB 1]

35 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I don't have time tonight to get into this, but we need to separate Nagy's responsibilities as a head coach and play caller here for a moment when judging him right now because I feel like fans are combining both of them and passing judgment as head coach based on the offensive failures thus far. Hell, I may even be guilty of this from time to time.  

IMO, Nagy is a hell of a head coach who had a big hand in changing the culture and giving us fans real hope at a title for the first time since Lovie stated that beating the Packers were his first priority and we have lost 7 games in the last 2 years by less than 8 points.  Let's not forget that. 

However, he is not what we expected as a play caller so far. That said, we also need to remember that last year he had personal on the roster that didn't fit his running scheme and Mitch was NOT his pick at a QB as well. And all head coaches (especially those who are considered offensive minded coached) prefer to pick a QB of their choice who they believe fit their scheme the best. Mitch has the physical tools on paper to match Nagy's RPO but the mental tools and technique are not something you can teach over night and are a concern at this point. 

The problem is the running game is worse now then it was with Jordan Howard who averaged 3.7 yards per rush last year and Mike Davis and Montgomery were both brought in to play in Nagy's scheme. It looks to me like the O-line is playing poorly and bringing the offense down. His offense better pick things up soon because the defense might be without Hicks for awhile and could struggle  without his size against the run or was it just one bad game against the League's biggest line.

[JAF-N72EX]

10 minutes ago, TB 1 said:

The problem is the running game is worse now then it was with Jordan Howard who averaged 3.7 yards per rush last year and Mike Davis and Montgomery were both brought in to play in Nagy's scheme. It looks to me like the O-line is playing poorly and bringing the offense down. His offense better pick things up soon because the defense might be without Hicks for awhile and could struggle  without his size against the run or was it just one bad game against the League's biggest line.

I don't disagree with this. The run game is worse because of poor OL play. I haven't seen as much poor play calling and predictability in regards to the run game this year. It's mainly been a lack of execution and that on the players.

The game starts up front and until changes are made up front (which won't happen mid-season) then we're going to continue to struggle. That's the bottom line.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by JustAnotherFan

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, Superman(DH23) said:

You just made the case for me, Minshew has 9 TDs in 5 games.  In 5 games from TB to Detroit MT threw 18 TDs.  You can say that it was only TB, that's 6 TDs, still 12 in the other 4, say it's only TB and Detroit, that's still 7 in 3.  It was a 5 game stretch the offense averaged over 30 ppg, the QB threw 18 TDs, it was an incredible stretch that no, sorry, Flip.hasnt matched, and where was your attempting to prop Flip last year when he was coordinating a painfully avg offense that got him fired, and improved significantly after he was fired.  Flip can be your guy, and that's fine, but its asinine to compare what the Jags are doing right now, to what this Bears offense did before Trus injury last year.

5 out of 6 games is not a 5 game stretch.  Also your math is simply incorrect. 6+3+2+2+1+3 equals 17, not 18.

You're ignoring the INTs as well, which was a big reason I posted the 9/1ratio and not just the 9 TDs. MIA he was 3/1, NE he had a 2/2, NYJ 2/0, BUF he went for 1/1. Add that to the TB game and he was 14/4 when it came to TDs to INTs. Switch the TB game for DET (3/0) and it goes to 11/4. I'd never turn my nose at either of course, but and one INT is more costly to me than one TD is beneficial, so no, they don't match up with the 9/1 ratio. From TB to BUF only NE and BUF were not 27th or higher in points given up per game.Minshew has faced damn good defenses overall each week, the worst (in PPG) being KC at 14th. 

You're willing to go out of your way to prop Tru regarding our bad OL play but ignore what MIN was putting out there? Elfein was injured early and never looked right, Reiff missed time, RT moved over to LT and they stared O'Neill at RT. I think only 1 guy made it through all 16, 6 or 7 different starting lineups, etc. We can both agree Cousins is not good. So you have a guy who clearly has never been able to pass well consistently with pressure behind a turnstile OL and you're never going to be consistently good. They were  bottom 5 OL last year, blocking for a mental midget QB. You think Nagy would have done better? Plus they played MIA and DET before getting shut down by CHI. So "significantly" better again isn't true at all. What team wouldn't  play better against MIA and DET over a stretch of CHI, GB, NE, and then SEA? lol Cousins had one game of note out of his three after Flip was fired (DET), they ran all over MIA (the 31st ranked run defense  ) and the team was broken during the Chicago game.  When they played CHI with Fip they score 10 more points too. I guess you can use MIA's 41 points to inflate their PPG but a 3 game sample size is laughable. The other two they averaged 18.5. 

That painfully average offense scored only 5 more TDs less than ours as well and almost identical YPG. They were also playing Chicago for 2 of those games as opposed to MIN. lol 

Lets take FGs and D/ST TDs out of the equation. If that what Flip fielded was average, then what has Nagy been able to produce since Tru came back vs LAR? On offense over the 5 games ending last year we had 5 passing TDs and 5 rushing TDs. So the offense put up all of 14 PPG to end the season. This year the offense has 6 passing and 2 rushing TDs over 5 games. So over the last 10 games the offense has produced 18 TDs. That comes out to just 12.6 PPG by the offense. Taking the last two games out (because Daniel compared to Tru/Cousins) then it still comes out to only 4 TDs over 3 games this season, so with Tru at the helm the offense has averaged 12.25 PPG over his last 8 games.

Flip's "painfully average" offense would be a serious step forward from this cesspool that is being produced. If Nagy was the OC and not the HC, he WOULD have been fired if held to the same standards.

Minshew obviously isn't going to keep up this pace, but Flip has had him playing well against good defenses while Tru's best stretch was beating up on some of the worst in the league. Was it a great stretch? Yeah, absolutely it was fun to see. But if you look at it with some context you see how uninspiring his last 2 seasons have been under Nagy. Hopefully he rights the ship and this all becomes an annoying memory, I like Nagy, but he has done a crap job as a playcaller and deserves the heat for it. He got praised for a small stretch of success on offense, he got the coach of the year when the defense was what made the team special, so he can take the criticism when the offense has been from bad to trash in 4 of 5 games.