Run Defense Snapshots

[AlexGreen#20]

Against the Chiefs we allowed runs of:

3, 5, 6, 8, 5, 4, 5, 4, 2, 6, 9, 2, 4, 1, 8, 9, 3, 0, 3, 4, and 3 yards

The runs for 8 and 9 yards had the following alignments:

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It's 3rd and 1 here. The Chiefs come out with 1 Back and 1 TE. 

1 TE means that there are 7 gaps that the defense needs to fill.

We come out in a Dime Defense (6 DBs) so only have five front line guys to fill those gaps. There's also a CB lined up outside of Kelce who isn't visible in this shot.

I don't know if Gary is ad-libbing here, or if this was part of a pressure package blitz, but Gary slides behind Clark and blitzes the A gap. That leaves only the CB with outside contain and he gets blasted out of it.

I don't know how you're supposed to stop the rush against 11 personnel out of a dime defense if you're not even going to seriously utilize your Safeties in the box.

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More Dime defense with no safeties in the box. What the **** is the point of having Tramon standing there with a thumb up his ***?

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Kelce ends up in the slot here which doesn't really change the personnel alignment except to move Amos even further out of the box. 

5 Offensive Lineman against a Dime Defense still isn't a good match unless you've got a safety in the box. We're playing undersized.

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How many ******* DBs do you need to cover 1 WR? There's 3 TEs and a RB in the game right here. Change up the damn personnel. Why are you in the nickel personnel here.

[KFP7]

I don't get why we seem to overload on dbs all the time.  Isn't the whole advantage of a stud secondary so that we can then overload up front?  Maybe our secondary isn't as good as advertised, but with Amos / Savage / King / Alexander it seems to make less sense to then go small.  

The defense has to find ways to win up front in both passing/rushing or it'll be more of the same.  

[coachbuns]

1 minute ago, KFP7 said:

I don't get why we seem to overload on dbs all the time.  Isn't the whole advantage of a stud secondary so that we can then overload up front?  Maybe our secondary isn't as good as advertised, but with Amos / Savage / King / Alexander it seems to make less sense to then go small.  

The defense has to find ways to win up front in both passing/rushing or it'll be more of the same.  

Agree with this.  Our secondary can handle its own.  Maybe we don't have crap at inside lb (which seems true) and our interior d line seems soft.  Or just maybe our defense scheme isn't what it's cracked up to be.  Our pressure D hasn't been much except for the Smiths .. better adjust something.

[Leader]

6 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

How many ******* DBs do you need to cover 1 WR? There's 3 TEs and a RB in the game right here. Change up the damn personnel. Why are you in the nickel personnel here.

Good thread. Good points.

I edited this down for space, but this last comment speaks to where I'm headed - why indeed are we overloaded with DBs versus ILBs/IDL?

Is it a general scheme that we dont think teams will be able to ultimately beat us using their ground game? That our offense and point production will ultimately dictate their offense? Given the points we're allowing....I doubt the latter's the reason.

Is our D scheme being molded by personnel (?) i.e. this is the best we've got and we're putting them out there? I'm not seeing teams go no huddle on us and preventing substitutions....so its not a decision being forced on us.

Zach Kruse:  My concern level in the Packers defense is really high. They allow a ton of explosive plays in the passing game, can't stop the run and turnovers are becoming less common. 8 takeaways the first 3 games, only 6 in the last 6. Allowing almost 26 points per game over the last 6.

I honestly cant remember seeing this one ILB formation as often as it seems to be getting used....and while Martinez continues to lead the team in tackles, I'm not sure if thats simply because he's the only one around or he's making plays.

Andy Herman: Martinez was my lowest graded defensive player coming into this week. I don’t see that changing after this game.

Peter Bukowski: I don't think it's a coincidence we saw more Tony Brown and more Oren Burks this week. They know King and Martinez have under performed.

Ryan Wood:  Remember when Packers pass defense wasn’t the problem? They’ve now had 3 straight QBs post a passer rating over 100. If this defense is going to be what it wants to be, that can’t happen. Because there are plenty of good QBs waiting in the playoffs.

[OneTwoSixFive]

I'm wondering how beat up the entire side is ? The Packers have played lots of bruising games against some very good teams and it might just be that they were worn down by the time the Chargers game happened. I'm thinking about key players, big guys that have had a great many snaps, especially on defense, like Clark and the Smiths. Maybe our offensive tackles are struggling a bit health-wise, as well. I'm more used to seeing them blocking for quite long periods, compared to what happened last night.

The bye week that comes after the Carolina game might sort out a lot of the problems, though from what I've seen in the comments above, maybe the defensive scheme needs tweaking a bit too.

[cannondale]

These are the guys you have to choose from: Martinez, Goodson, Burks, Summers. Good Luck

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Leader said:

Good thread. Good points.

I edited this down for space, but this last comment speaks to where I'm headed - why indeed are we overloaded with DBs versus ILBs/IDL?

Is it a general scheme that we dont think teams will be able to ultimately beat us using their ground game? That our offense and point production will ultimately dictate their offense? Given the points we're allowing....I doubt the latter's the reason.

Is our D scheme being molded by personnel (?) i.e. this is the best we've got and we're putting them out there? I'm not seeing teams go no huddle on us and preventing substitutions....so its not a decision being forced on us.

Zach Kruse:  My concern level in the Packers defense is really high. They allow a ton of explosive plays in the passing game, can't stop the run and turnovers are becoming less common. 8 takeaways the first 3 games, only 6 in the last 6. Allowing almost 26 points per game over the last 6.

I honestly cant remember seeing this one ILB formation as often as it seems to be getting used....and while Martinez continues to lead the team in tackles, I'm not sure if thats simply because he's the only one around or he's making plays.

Andy Herman: Martinez was my lowest graded defensive player coming into this week. I don’t see that changing after this game.

Peter Bukowski: I don't think it's a coincidence we saw more Tony Brown and more Oren Burks this week. They know King and Martinez have under performed.

Ryan Wood:  Remember when Packers pass defense wasn’t the problem? They’ve now had 3 straight QBs post a passer rating over 100. If this defense is going to be what it wants to be, that can’t happen. Because there are plenty of good QBs waiting in the playoffs.

We overload with DBs for three reasons:

1. We have ZERO inside linebacker talent outside of Martinez. Everybody else you put on the field becomes a real soft spot to pick on. There appears to be a misguided belief that our Safeties are fine to be subbing in for that role.

2. We're playing super soft and daring teams to drive on us. This is the bend but don't break defense. 2 safeties deep, leaving open the short passing game and the run game. It can work like it did in the first half where it leads to FGs in the redzone, but damn is it horrible to watch, even when it's working. When it's not working, Christ. I miss pre 2016 Dom's scheme. At least we blitzed and had interesting pressure packages. 

3. There appears to be a belief that it's very difficult for an Offense to hurt you with a run game bad enough to kill you. On paper, I get it. The number of explosive plays allowed are minimal. There's an expectation that if you can keep the opposing offense around 4.5 yards per rush, that you'll be fine. Even the idea that outnumbered up front, this group is good enough to occasionally slip a block or the offensive line will screw up, and you'll get the team out of a run down.

The lack of a consistent pass rush is extremely troubling this week. That Chargers offensive line sucks, and we couldn't get anything up the middle.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, OneTwoSixFive said:

I'm wondering how beat up the entire side is ? The Packers have played lots of bruising games against some very good teams and it might just be that they were worn down by the time the Chargers game happened. I'm thinking about key players, big guys that have had a great many snaps, especially on defense, like Clark and the Smiths. Maybe our offensive tackles are struggling a bit health-wise, as well. I'm more used to seeing them blocking for quite long periods, compared to what happened last night.

The bye week that comes after the Carolina game might sort out a lot of the problems, though from what I've seen in the comments above, maybe the defensive scheme needs tweaking a bit too.

I think there's a lot to this. That first 4 (Clark, Smith, Smith, Martinez) on defense have been ridden ridiculously hard through 9 weeks.

I think Bulaga and Bakhtiari just ran into stylistically their worst matchup. Hopefully that straightens itself out.

[Golfman]

I don't think you can overreact to one game. The Patriots got spanked by Baltimore yesterday. Looking at the positive, we got exposed on both sides of the ball and know what we have to work on. 

Blake Martinez has to come off the field on passing downs, no question. WE need to get some rest and the bye week can't come fast enough. I want to see more of Burks in coverage because he can't be as bad as Martinez. 

[coachbuns]

39 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

We overload with DBs for three reasons:

1. We have ZERO inside linebacker talent outside of Martinez. Everybody else you put on the field becomes a real soft spot to pick on. There appears to be a misguided belief that our Safeties are fine to be subbing in for that role.

2. We're playing super soft and daring teams to drive on us. This is the bend but don't break defense. 2 safeties deep, leaving open the short passing game and the run game. It can work like it did in the first half where it leads to FGs in the redzone, but damn is it horrible to watch, even when it's working. When it's not working, Christ. I miss pre 2016 Dom's scheme. At least we blitzed and had interesting pressure packages. 

3. There appears to be a belief that it's very difficult for an Offense to hurt you with a run game bad enough to kill you. On paper, I get it. The number of explosive plays allowed are minimal. There's an expectation that if you can keep the opposing offense around 4.5 yards per rush, that you'll be fine. Even the idea that outnumbered up front, this group is good enough to occasionally slip a block or the offensive line will screw up, and you'll get the team out of a run down.

The lack of a consistent pass rush is extremely troubling this week. That Chargers offensive line sucks, and we couldn't get anything up the middle.

 

Not sure Martinez is that good but he's all they have.  Pretty much a sad sack of talent there.  No blitzing whatsoever, soft coverages, bad angles and tackling not to mention all the splash plays allowed makes for a long season for this defense.   If it wasn't for the Smiths, there wouldn't be a pass rush.  Our interior DL is about as bad as the inside backers.  Let our secondary be a reasonable normal secondary instead of being linebackers.  This defense the past 3-4 games hasn't been what we thought they were.

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, Golfman said:

I don't think you can overreact to one game. The Patriots got spanked by Baltimore yesterday. Looking at the positive, we got exposed on both sides of the ball and know what we have to work on. 

Blake Martinez has to come off the field on passing downs, no question. WE need to get some rest and the bye week can't come fast enough. I want to see more of Burks in coverage because he can't be as bad as Martinez. 

This isn't one game. This is like 6 straight weeks. 

Martinez isn't the problem. Every ILB looks like crap when they're not kept clean. How do you keep an ILB clean when you don't have the people up front to attempt it?

[AlexGreen#20]

2 minutes ago, coachbuns said:

Not sure Martinez is that good but he's all they have.  Pretty much a sad sack of talent there.  No blitzing whatsoever, soft coverages, bad angles and tackling not to mention all the splash plays allowed makes for a long season for this defense.   If it wasn't for the Smiths, there wouldn't be a pass rush.  Our interior DL is about as bad as the inside backers.  Let our secondary be a reasonable normal secondary instead of being linebackers.  This defense the past 3-4 games hasn't been what we thought they were.

Our IDL is very clearly Kenny Clark and some JAGs. Giving Dean Lowry that contract under those conditions was gross as hell. Clear example of hoping a guy will grow into his contract. But even still, play some honest to god physical defense up front with enough guys in the box and we're not having this conversation.

[Golfman]

Just now, AlexGreen#20 said:

This isn't one game. This is like 6 straight weeks. 

Martinez isn't the problem. Every ILB looks like crap when they're not kept clean. How do you keep an ILB clean when you don't have the people up front to attempt it?

I was referring to the overall performance. Clearly we got out schemed yesterday and Pettine wasn't prepared, but the whole team played lousy yesterday. Need a bye week to get healthy and for Pettine to evaluate things. If he can't might be time for a new coordinator next year IMO. 

[Jaire_Island]

I felt Pettine has done lot better with less talent last year scheme wise...

[coachbuns]

1 minute ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Our IDL is very clearly Kenny Clark and some JAGs. Giving Dean Lowry that contract under those conditions was gross as hell. Clear example of hoping a guy will grow into his contract. But even still, play some honest to god physical defense up front with enough guys in the box and we're not having this conversation.

Agree.  Seems our DL is getting pushed around way to easy.  Thinking our defensive scheming isn't any where near what it should be.  Square pegs in a round hole?