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Karnage84

LIONS BRINGING PATRICIA AND QUINN BACK FOR 2020

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1 hour ago, Nnivolcm said:

It's been said over and over by many here. We don't care who the Lions are successful with. We just want to see them become successful.

If, somehow, Patricia becomes successful next year (and beyond) I'd be happy to have been proven wrong about Quinn and Patricia.

The same could have been said in '07 and '08 with Millen and Marinelli. If the Lions would have been successful with them, I'd have been happy with their performance.

That is why your question is ridiculous. We'd all be thrilled with almost anybody who could make the Lions a good organization. 

Eh. Perhaps you missed the context.

Sllim has concluded that, based on his first two years, Patricia is trash. I was simply asking him how a 10 win season and/or playoff berth next year would change his impression of him.

Unless Sllim's argument was "Patricia is trash unless and until he isn't", I think my question to him was plenty reasonable.

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5 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Why won't any of you answer my question?

If you're question was to Sllim and Sllim alone, you wouldn't have asked me why I ignored it.

Edited by Nnivolcm

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On 2019-12-27 at 1:51 PM, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Respectfully, can one argue that Patricia did just this with the offense this year? (Before Stafford was injured, of course.)

I thought the offence was playing well. Certainly good enough to win. I’ve always felt it was a mistake to not have a better back up option but it was a gamble that didn’t work out. 

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1 hour ago, Nnivolcm said:

If you're question was to Sllim and Sllim alone, you wouldn't have asked me why I ignored it.

Sigh.

Sllim's stance provoked the question. If you disagree with Sllim's stance, so be it, but that's probably something you should acknowledge before you call the question ridiculous (and avoid answering it).

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44 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I thought the offence was playing well. Certainly good enough to win. I’ve always felt it was a mistake to not have a better back up option but it was a gamble that didn’t work out. 

Absolutely. I agree.

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20 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Sigh.

Sllim's stance provoked the question. If you disagree with Sllim's stance, so be it, but that's probably something you should acknowledge before you call the question ridiculous (and avoid answering it).

It's a ridiculous, and leading, question. That's been explained.

It's also been answered. You were the one who gave a non answer when I asked an equally ridiculous question. 

Edit: Sigh of my own.

Edited by Nnivolcm

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On 2019-12-27 at 11:38 AM, Karnage84 said:

Quinn was hired on January 8, 2016. The draft was held on April 28, 2016. A lot of the guys in that room were holdovers from Mayhew's era and he was drafting for a system/coach that was against his preferred method. He didn't even get a full off-season to scout guys and make his true mark. 

The first five picks of this draft are still on the roster with the top 3 being starters (Decker, A'Shawn, Glasgow) with Killebrew and Dahl playing significant roles. Zettel made an impact for a later round guy as well. 6/10

2017 was his first full off-season as GM. He selected Jarrad Davis who was an All-Rookie selection that year. He is responsible for adding BabyTron who is a top level NFL WR as a 3rd round pick. JRM and Agnew are both solid contributors in their roles as back ups. He definitely whiffed on Tabor and Roberts > Kittle. I'll give him Ledbetter as a back-up as there was some contribution fro him. 5/9

2018 - Every single guy is still on the roster. Five out of six picks are starters at their position (Ragnow, KJ, Walker, Hand, Bawden). There has been some injury issues in this class which does hurt the overall impact. You do really need 3 years to see what you have and for guys to get churned out. I don't expect Bawden to be on the roster next year, so we'll give this a 5/6.

16/25 = 64% Hit Rate *Not including 2019

Where Quinn can be found at fault is that he has not drafted any AP 1st Team or Pro Bowl players. The Lions have been a mediocre team and don't generate a lot of buzz. The Pro Bowl is more of a popularity contest especially for positions like OL. This does hurt the selection for a guy like Ragnow, who has been rated as the top OC by PFF at times throughout the season. WR is always stacked so Golladay is a guy that could miss out just due to the volume. Still, it is what it is and the criticism does hold. 

To me, Quinn is a slightly above to above average GM that has had moderate success. 2018 and 2019 are the true measures of who he is as an evaluator and team builder. He has the coach that he wants and he's drafting for the scheme of his choice. 

I think we're getting too stuck on his statements regarding Caldwell and his perennial 9-7 not being good enough. The decision was made to tear down and rebuild the organization in the mold of Patriots Mid-West. They did a poor job at communicating this and maybe it's because they expected to reload instead. There was a ton of roster turnover and a ton of organizational changes. 2020 is the year to really see what this team will be moving forward under this regime. If they bounce back and go 9-7, they're likely going to be given another 2-3 years to keep building. If they go 4-12 or 6-10 (or worse), then ownership is going to scrap this experience and find someone new. 

 

Quinn’s picks that remain on the roster are more proof of his incompetence. If his picks were sticking on a competitive team that’s one thing. However the Lions are a dumpster fire and 4 drafts and free agency periods have simply returned the Lions to laughing stock status. It really doesn’t matter how many of his picks are on the team when they are 3-12-1. If you were suggesting his picks were great and the team was 11-5 bound for the playoffs then you might have a case.

Everyone preaches stability but that only holds true when you have the right people in place. Caldwell averaged 9 wins per year and achieved the playoffs twice in four years. The case for stability was in keeping Caldwell not in hiring Patricia and regressing both years. Frankly, the Lions are a joke and keeping the Patriots light staff is proof. Caldwells WORST season is better than Patricias best season yet they’re keeping Patricia. They should improve next year because they can’t get any worse. 

The entire reason for replacing a coaching staff is to improve not falter and fall off the map. Quinn simply wanted his buddy as coach and it’s proven to be a mistake. 

Teams that have won super bowls don’t wait on failure. They make changes. I shouldn’t complain because it’s obvious Lions ownership haven’t got a clue as evidenced by 60+ years of total failure. 

The Lions are so bad they prefer to alienate star players. It took years before Sanders would even associate with the Lions. If rumours are true CJ won’t even answer a phone call from these incompetent goofs.

Theres more than enough evidence to show the Lions are a historical disaster and absolutely no evidence other than blind homerism to suggest they know what they’re doing. The Fords have a long history of management issues in all their undertakings and the Lions are their mantle piece of incompetence.

The only reason I will even read about them is in the hope they trade Stafford to a competent team so he has a chance to salvage part of his career. Lord knows it’s been wasted on the amateur Lions. 

So here we are getting ready for the Lions true season, the draft. It’s an opportunity for Lions fans to pretend they cheer for a football team. The draft and free agency will no doubt generate optimism as Quinn and Patricia hit the media circuit talking about the great strides made in adding talent.

Its like bloody Groundhog Day with this team. We can wait with baited breath to see which potential stars they pass on to draft a scheme specific player whose career they will no doubt stifle if not flat out ruin.

Yet still some will look through the stench and buy in to the latest PR campaign somehow expecting these guys to build a winner. They will go 8-8 maybe even 9-7 next year and all the kool aid drinkers will rejoice claiming they were right yet the following year the Lions will fail again but be given another year.

Nothing like conducting business the same way for 60 years and somehow expecting a different result. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, diehardlionfan said:

Quinn’s picks that remain on the roster are more proof of his incompetence. If his picks were sticking on a competitive team that’s one thing. However the Lions are a dumpster fire and 4 drafts and free agency periods have simply returned the Lions to laughing stock status. It really doesn’t matter how many of his picks are on the team when they are 3-12-1. If you were suggesting his picks were great and the team was 11-5 bound for the playoffs then you might have a case.

Everyone preaches stability but that only holds true when you have the right people in place. Caldwell averaged 9 wins per year and achieved the playoffs twice in four years. The case for stability was in keeping Caldwell not in hiring Patricia and regressing both years. Frankly, the Lions are a joke and keeping the Patriots light staff is proof. Caldwells WORST season is better than Patricias best season yet they’re keeping Patricia. They should improve next year because they can’t get any worse. 

The entire reason for replacing a coaching staff is to improve not falter and fall off the map. Quinn simply wanted his buddy as coach and it’s proven to be a mistake. 

Teams that have won super bowls don’t wait on failure. They make changes. I shouldn’t complain because it’s obvious Lions ownership haven’t got a clue as evidenced by 60+ years of total failure. 

The Lions are so bad they prefer to alienate star players. It took years before Sanders would even associate with the Lions. If rumours are true CJ won’t even answer a phone call from these incompetent goofs.

Theres more than enough evidence to show the Lions are a historical disaster and absolutely no evidence other than blind homerism to suggest they know what they’re doing. The Fords have a long history of management issues in all their undertakings and the Lions are their mantle piece of incompetence.

The only reason I will even read about them is in the hope they trade Stafford to a competent team so he has a chance to salvage part of his career. Lord knows it’s been wasted on the amateur Lions. 

So here we are getting ready for the Lions true season, the draft. It’s an opportunity for Lions fans to pretend they cheer for a football team. The draft and free agency will no doubt generate optimism as Quinn and Patricia hit the media circuit talking about the great strides made in adding talent.

Its like bloody Groundhog Day with this team. We can wait with baited breath to see which potential stars they pass on to draft a scheme specific player whose career they will no doubt stifle if not flat out ruin.

Yet still some will look through the stench and buy in to the latest PR campaign somehow expecting these guys to build a winner. They will go 8-8 maybe even 9-7 next year and all the kool aid drinkers will rejoice claiming they were right yet the following year the Lions will fail again but be given another year.

Nothing like conducting business the same way for 60 years and somehow expecting a different result. 

 

 

The one part that I am in 100% agreement with you is on the alienation of star players. I don't understand why they would take the position that they did on both Barry AND Calvin. Barry was a while ago and it was clearly a mistake. He's a mainstay at the games and a hit amongst fans, young and old. Learn from what happened with Barry and don't repeat that with Calvin over $1M. 

If the Lions don't look to be competitive next year, there is no question that they should be trading Stafford to a team that gives him a chance to win a ring. I'll cheer for him regardless of whose jersey he is wearing. 

As a GM, you want to be able to pick your own guy. It's not a great situation to inherit a coach that was not of your choosing and to place your job security into someone else's hands. Some guys make it work (Pete Carroll/John Schneider) while many others don't mesh. No one is suggesting that this has worked out well so far but I can't blame Quinn for wanting to bring in his own HC. I wouldn't look at this team going 9-7 next year as a failure. It's a step in the right direction in a very difficult division. This isn't the 2019 NFC East or (insert any year in past decade) AFC East. 

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Anybody else worried about the #3 pick, 50 million in cap space and Martha Ford saying win now in 2020?  I mean, what could go wrong with a desperate GM?

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3 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Anybody else worried about the #3 pick, 50 million in cap space and Martha Ford saying win now in 2020?  I mean, what could go wrong with a desperate GM?

If your gonna go down, go down swinging. 

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1 hour ago, LionArkie said:

Anybody else worried about the #3 pick, 50 million in cap space and Martha Ford saying win now in 2020?  I mean, what could go wrong with a desperate GM?

Very worried, but, this team is a Stafford injury away next year from being able to draft Trevor Lawrence 1st overall with a brand new regime!

These guys can have all the cap space, and the highest picks, imo, they just don't sign or get the right guys and put them in the right spots. I can almost guarantee now they're trading Slay and drafting that CB from Ohio State at 3. They've done a magnificent job of targeting needs in the 1st round over drafting true talent. (Hockenson/Ragnow/Davis/Decker) All might be solid players but were/are basically drafted on need, passing up other more talented players each draft

We paid 24 more million dollars to Flowers than what Zadarius Smith got. Think about that. An I'm not even mad at Flowers, he just did what he normally does. Like he posted a career average year this year, it's Quinn/Patricia/Lions fault for paying him like he's DeMarcus Ware or someone like that. He's a 50-65 million dollar player getting paid elite, top notch money for his position. They did the same thing with Jesse James, who was just a average starter/good back up TE they paid as a starting TE. Also DT Mike Daniels who provided basically empty stats for the Lions this season. It's these constant miss allocation of resources along with ignoring others(OLINE, RB Depth, TE in previous years, DE depth, QB Depth, .) Three hand picked guys that were counted on to make significant upgrades and underwhelmed big time!

Who they going to pay this type of money to next? Not to mention they'll most likely trade Slay and idk how we'll actually recoup the value, but we'll see what happens. If we're out of the playoffs and they move him at the deadline, sure get that and I'll like it better, similar to Golden Tate trade. Didn't make us better but I understood the move if they weren't willing to pay him again and you're out of the playoff hunt and milked something for the future out of him. 

It's not really guys like Flowers though or Stafford I point my angry to anymore.Stafford could be successful, really good, but the Organization from coaches to GM don't surround him with the right players and use the wrong resources to fulfill needs and holes on the team. Quinn, imo, has been this weird reactionary type GM who isn't proactive with his drafting or signings. The most proactive move I seen him do was the Golden Tate trade. Pressure on the QB has been an issue for this team since the constant Ziggy injuries and signing a guy who averaged 7 a year prolly wasn't really, or shouldn't of been the only answer to the solution. An running back to running back depth has been an issue since Jim Caldwell. Not signing a RB or drafting one early prolly cost Caldwell his job and the Lions a playoff birth quite frankley. The next 3 RB drafted behind Tabor were Alvin Kamara, Kareem Hunt, James Connor. Not to mention he didn't bother signing a guy and trotted out Abdullah/Reddick/Green/Zenner all flamed out hard when not on a Lions roster. 

Edited by SimbaWho

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1 hour ago, SimbaWho said:

Very worried, but, this team is a Stafford injury away next year from being able to draft Trevor Lawrence 1st overall with a brand new regime!

 

My nightmare is they will trade next years 1st in order to win now, and miss out on a high pick for a new regime.

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27 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

My nightmare is they will trade next years 1st in order to win now, and miss out on a high pick for a new regime.

This is mine too..."For the 2020 nfl draft the Lions trade the # 3 pick to NE for Tom Brady" or some nonsense like that, lol.

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23 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Sigh.

Sllim's stance provoked the question. If you disagree with Sllim's stance, so be it, but that's probably something you should acknowledge before you call the question ridiculous (and avoid answering it).

If Patricia were to win 10 games next year and take us to the playoffs, I’d eat crow and admit I was wrong.  I don’t see it happening though.  Nothing got me excited this season and I don’t think we are a player away.  I’ve bought the “we almost won a bunch of games” hype before and it’s always false.  Good coaches find a way to win with what they have.  Especially when they have leads in games.  Bad coaches find ways to lose. 

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