What do we do with Jameis Winston?

[ravishingone]

Just a thought...... ....

What if this public poaturing by BA is all part of the contract negotiating process. As a long time fan, I have an internal debate.  Does coaching maximize a player s ability or players make coaches.

So with Bucs drafted QBs

Testaverde-career high 35 picks with the Bucs.  His HCs in Tampa-Ray Perkins, Richard Williamson.  Leaves Tampa gets coached by Belichick, Marchibroda, and Parcells

Steve Young- last season in Tampa 8 TDs 13 Picks.  Leeman Bennett.  Leaves Tampa gets Bill Walsh, Seifert, Mariucci

What s interesting about both QBs, after leaving Tampa there wasn t an immediate turn around, but it took a few seasons. I think we can all agree Winston has talent.  The question is did Smith and Koetter really that good of HCs.  Is yr 1 under BA a continuation of a career on the slide, or is he finally in capable coaching,

I am Pro Get the QB Position Fixed.  Just throwing out various ideas.  

[bucsfan333]

The question of finding a QB that doesn't turn over the ball 2+ times a game doesn't seem difficult. Turning over the ball at that rate is an extremely difficult feat.

The question is finding a guy who will push the ball down the field and put up the good numbers (or close) that Jameis has put up throughout his career.

5,100 yards is crazy. No other way to spin it. 34 TDs is alright; not world shattering. But great.

If we draft a Herbert, or Eason, or Love, can he run this offense? Can he push the ball downfield? Can he put up the numbers needed to win? Can he lead drives to score points?

Like I said, NOT committing 35 turnovers isn't the question. That should be a given.

But can whoever we potentially replace Jameis with move the ball and score points?

I think that's the question. I don't think we can assume we'll automatically win more games with someone else just because he doesn't turn the ball over. 

Jameis lead an offense that scored almost 30 points per game, WITH 35 turnovers. Can someone else come in and do the same or similar, without the turnovers?

[ravishingone]

1 hour ago, bucsfan333 said:

The question of finding a QB that doesn't turn over the ball 2+ times a game doesn't seem difficult. Turning over the ball at that rate is an extremely difficult feat.

The question is finding a guy who will push the ball down the field and put up the good numbers (or close) that Jameis has put up throughout his career.

5,100 yards is crazy. No other way to spin it. 34 TDs is alright; not world shattering. But great.

If we draft a Herbert, or Eason, or Love, can he run this offense? Can he push the ball downfield? Can he put up the numbers needed to win? Can he lead drives to score points?

Like I said, NOT committing 35 turnovers isn't the question. That should be a given.

But can whoever we potentially replace Jameis with move the ball and score points?

I think that's the question. I don't think we can assume we'll automatically win more games with someone else just because he doesn't turn the ball over. 

Jameis lead an offense that scored almost 30 points per game, WITH 35 turnovers. Can someone else come in and do the same or similar, without the turnovers?

By far this is the most aggressive passing attack in the league.  The reception distribution is weighted heavily to the WRs, distant second RBs, and then TEs.  It s not that Jameis didn t see the LB, this offense is designed to go over the LBs head and hit passes over the middle of the field.  He trusted his arm way too much.  

Whoever is the QB, this offense forces the Qb to throw the ball down the field.  Down the field and between the hashes takes courage and arm strength.  

I don t think Herbert can be that guy.  He looks like a bigger, more athletic version of Carr.  I see him in West Coast.  Love is so raw with a lot of athletic ability.  He can escape pressure with his feet, but what can he do throwimg down field on the run.   His level of competition, he didn t see the speed or athleticism then other comferences.  Eason, you can see some of the throws in this offense, but can he handle making decisions under pressure because he won t be able to escape like the other 2.

Finally, this was the Leftwich offense with the BA principles.  He was such a green plsy caller, how does he evolve with more experience?   There wasn t a lot of drag routes or slants.  The screen game was better. but a more athletic RT, could make a big difference   I don t see that changing.  

The only FA Qb I see them going after if not Jameis is Rivers.  I think they are going to resign Gsbbert.  He is a BA guy and will be cheap.  I see Dalton as more of a West Coast guy.  

[SBucfan]

I still think we as a fan base are over rating these 5000 yards. Yes it’s an impressive feat but when you constantly throw early ints and are playing from behind you need to throw down field more. When your a 7-9 losing team the 30 ints are absolutely more important than the 5000 yards.
 

A lot of us as a fan base have been constantly trying to defend jameis for the past 5 years because there has always been something. And I have been in that boat. From the very start when there were all these off field concerns during the draft and it maybe it wasn’t as bad as what was getting poured out by the media we started having to defend him. Then continuous off field stuff, week one byes, bad defense, bad kickers there has always been an excuse so we are constantly in defend him mode. At this point a lot of people just want to be justified that he’s not a terrible qb like everyone thinks he is so we are jumping all over the high yardage stat. But wheres the growth. Year 5 now.

5000 yards doesn’t mean winning football. The top 5 passing leaders this year, none made the playoffs. That’s not something to strive for. Winning football in 2020 is protecting the ball and having a good run game and defense. I hope BA and Byron are paying attention to that and are willing to adjust their scheme

[sryan66611]

21 hours ago, bucsfan333 said:

The question of finding a QB that doesn't turn over the ball 2+ times a game doesn't seem difficult. Turning over the ball at that rate is an extremely difficult feat.

The question is finding a guy who will push the ball down the field and put up the good numbers (or close) that Jameis has put up throughout his career.

5,100 yards is crazy. No other way to spin it. 34 TDs is alright; not world shattering. But great.

If we draft a Herbert, or Eason, or Love, can he run this offense? Can he push the ball downfield? Can he put up the numbers needed to win? Can he lead drives to score points?

Like I said, NOT committing 35 turnovers isn't the question. That should be a given.

But can whoever we potentially replace Jameis with move the ball and score points?

I think that's the question. I don't think we can assume we'll automatically win more games with someone else just because he doesn't turn the ball over. 

Jameis lead an offense that scored almost 30 points per game, WITH 35 turnovers. Can someone else come in and do the same or similar, without the turnovers?

100% this...   It's like would we be better with RIvers throwing for 4600 yards 23 tds and 20 ints?  The turnovers aren't the problem when looking for a new QB its someone who can match what Jameis did.  Its not a given that whoever comes in here is going to be good because we have the best WR duo in the league.  You still have to get the ball to them.

[ravishingone]

24 minutes ago, sryan66611 said:

100% this...   It's like would we be better with RIvers throwing for 4600 yards 23 tds and 20 ints?  The turnovers aren't the problem when looking for a new QB its someone who can match what Jameis did.  Its not a given that whoever comes in here is going to be good because we have the best WR duo in the league.  You still have to get the ball to them.

The passing scheme requires the ball to go to the WRs over 10 yds the majority of the time.  I know it was only a handful of plays, but we got a glimpse of what the offense would look like with a guy who couldn t or wouldn t get the ball down the field with Griffin against the Colts.  

After watching wildcard weekend, no team went vertical as much as the Bucs, the closest I saw was the Seahawks.  They only threw the ball 30 times. Winston threw the ball below 35 times only 5 times.  So does Leftwich pull in the reigns a little bit or they better get a running game. A little bit of both would help because the Hawks threw a bunch of crossers besides vertical 

[bucsfan333]

19 hours ago, SBucfan said:

I still think we as a fan base are over rating these 5000 yards. Yes it’s an impressive feat but when you constantly throw early ints and are playing from behind you need to throw down field more. When your a 7-9 losing team the 30 ints are absolutely more important than the 5000 yards.
 

A lot of us as a fan base have been constantly trying to defend jameis for the past 5 years because there has always been something. And I have been in that boat. From the very start when there were all these off field concerns during the draft and it maybe it wasn’t as bad as what was getting poured out by the media we started having to defend him. Then continuous off field stuff, week one byes, bad defense, bad kickers there has always been an excuse so we are constantly in defend him mode. At this point a lot of people just want to be justified that he’s not a terrible qb like everyone thinks he is so we are jumping all over the high yardage stat. But wheres the growth. Year 5 now.

5000 yards doesn’t mean winning football. The top 5 passing leaders this year, none made the playoffs. That’s not something to strive for. Winning football in 2020 is protecting the ball and having a good run game and defense. I hope BA and Byron are paying attention to that and are willing to adjust their scheme

5,000 yards is impressive from a historic standpoint. But it doesn't equate wins. You're right.

But when we can't run the ball consistently or even at a four ypc rate, we've gotta do something to move the ball. 

It would be nice to only need to throw the ball 30 times because we're cranking out 120 on the ground. But we don't have that. So we have to compensate.

If we move on from Jameis, whoever replaces him doesn't need to throw for 5,000 yards. We just need to be able to move the ball and score points. Jameis can do that with the best of them, despite the turnovers. Is BA confident there's someone else out there who can do the same without them?

[ravishingone]

3 hours ago, bucsfan333 said:

5,000 yards is impressive from a historic standpoint. But it doesn't equate wins. You're right.

But when we can't run the ball consistently or even at a four ypc rate, we've gotta do something to move the ball. 

It would be nice to only need to throw the ball 30 times because we're cranking out 120 on the ground. But we don't have that. So we have to compensate.

If we move on from Jameis, whoever replaces him doesn't need to throw for 5,000 yards. We just need to be able to move the ball and score points. Jameis can do that with the best of them, despite the turnovers. Is BA confident there's someone else out there who can do the same without them?

To further your point, the Bucs were tied with the second lowest yds per carry in the league, while 14 th in the league in attenpts.  They were 27th in the league getting first  downs from rushing.  They were only 107 first downs behind the Ravens. 😀  This effects the passing game further because they didn t shy away from the run. but made little headway making longer ydg to first down. 

[bucsfan333]

44 minutes ago, ravishingone said:

To further your point, the Bucs were tied with the second lowest yds per carry in the league, while 14 th in the league in attenpts.  They were 27th in the league getting first  downs from rushing.  They were only 107 first downs behind the Ravens. 😀  This effects the passing game further because they didn t shy away from the run. but made little headway making longer ydg to first down. 

And despite being dead last in turnovers per drive, we were still 10th in points per drive. It wasn't the run game driving us down the field and scoring those points.

[indifference]

not going get into this discussion too much bc yall know where i stand. reality is a lot of his interceptions are forced balls not bc he didnt have a run game. His problem throwing the ball pre determined is not a run game issue. Its a decision making issue, same issues he had in college. It took him 9 weeks to realize it was okay to make plays with his feet and scramble / pick up yardage with his legs. So many instances earlier this season he failed to bail from pocket and pick up yards. Mahomes didnt really have much of a run game yet not even close in the Int leaders category. Matt Ryan as well so im not going commend him too much. He has arguably the best WR duo in the league, and is dead set on going for the big play majority of his drop backs. 

 

[bucsfan333]

10 minutes ago, indifference said:

not going get into this discussion too much bc yall know where i stand. reality is a lot of his interceptions are forced balls not bc he didnt have a run game. His problem throwing the ball pre determined is not a run game issue. Its a decision making issue, same issues he had in college. It took him 9 weeks to realize it was okay to make plays with his feet and scramble / pick up yardage with his legs. So many instances earlier this season he failed to bail from pocket and pick up yards. Mahomes didnt really have much of a run game yet not even close in the Int leaders category. Matt Ryan as well so im not going commend him too much. He has arguably the best WR duo in the league, and is dead set on going for the big play majority of his drop backs. 

I'm not blaming a lack of run game on the INTs. Bad decisions, bad bounces, and not seeing the underneath defender are what lead to all the INTs.

I'm saying a lack of run game is why we need a QB who can push down the ball down the field and score points. We know Jameis can do it, despite the turnovers. Is there someone else out there that BA believes can also do it?

BA said he wants his QB at 3:1. So 30:10, 36:12. Something around that. Jameis has never been that QB. And it's doubtful he ever can be. But he can run this offense.

Is there someone else out there that can also be expected to run this offense successfully? And can we acquire him? Or do we stick with the guy we know can run this offense with success and hope the turnovers go down?

[ravishingone]

I believe there are 3 scenerios fot Qb next season.  First, resign Jameis and Gabbert.  Second, sign Rivers.  Remember Rivers won t be cheap, so signing him means your still going for the playoffs, so highly unlikely Qb in rd 1 or 2.  He ll get at least 22 million.  Doubtful Rivers is lookiing to take a pay cut to continue plating.  Third, sign bridge QB for under 12 million, which would alloe more holes to fill in FA because of the possible. draft picks lost to get a QB in rd 1.  Bridge QB list- Gabbert, Sudfeld, Keenum.  Not an impressive list to say the least.

Edited January 6, 2020 by ravishingone

[indifference]

gabbert keenum none of those guys have strong arms, might as well throw Teddy name in that hat. im cool with teddy and draft pick. his deep ball analytics were better than jameis, red zone %, and more accurate in general.

clean comp: 75.7 to 68.5

pressured comp: 33 to 37 

deep ball %: 46.7 to 36.3

red zone comp: 62% to 54.7

 

 

[Toddfather]

1.) Pay for his lasik procedure.

2.) Franchise tag him.

3.) Pray.

[bucsfan333]