spilltray Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Hunter2_1 said: I'm saying there is a fundamental, noticeable issue with the position. It's not just an aberration. And I'm saying the root of the issue is specific teams being bad at acquiring and developing offensive linemen individually and as a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, spilltray said: And I'm saying the root of the issue is specific teams being bad at acquiring and developing offensive linemen individually and as a unit. I disagree. It's more than just a few teams struggling. It's entire offences collapsing. I've just posted stats that show the regression of offense. Take a look at this years' draft. Only 2 teams felt they should spend a 1st round pick on OLers, and that started at pick 20 with Bolles! (Average player). This is and will continue to be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spilltray Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 40 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said: Six teams failed to crack double-digit points and another, the New York Jets, got 12 but didn’t score a touchdown. As Gregg Rosenthal noted at NFL.com, 14 offenses gained fewer than 300 yards in Week 1, accounting for more than 46 percent of the teams who played. That didn’t occur with such frequency in any week last year, and only 22 percent of offenses gained fewer than 300 yards in the previous three Week 1s. Last year, only the Rams averaged fewer than 300 yards for the season. This was a bad class at the top end for OL but there were a bunch of decent guys in rounds 2-4. The teams with putrid OLs consistently ignore the OL and draft anything else.] As far as "stats", one week hardly proves regression. Just because offenses had a down week doesn't make it a systematic problem with OL as a whole. We'll see if it continues, but I wouldn't be totally surprised. You have plenty of teams that either have ignored/done awful with the OL, have either poor or inexperienced QBs, or offensive issues in general. I don't think you can pin offensive output being down on OL. For Seattle and Cincinnati sure maybe mostly OL, but the Jets for example are putrid top to bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 1 minute ago, spilltray said: This was a bad class at the top end for OL but there were a bunch of decent guys in rounds 2-4. The teams with putrid OLs consistently ignore the OL and draft anything else.] As far as "stats", one week hardly proves regression. Just because offenses had a down week doesn't make it a systematic problem with OL as a whole. We'll see if it continues, but I wouldn't be totally surprised. You have plenty of teams that either have ignored/done awful with the OL, have either poor or inexperienced QBs, or offensive issues in general. I don't think you can pin offensive output being down on OL. For Seattle and Cincinnati sure maybe mostly OL, but the Jets for example are putrid top to bottom. I agree with all that. That systematic ignoring of the OL though could be a reason for this perceived issue in the league. Most people probably won't think it's a league issue (such as yourself), but it is being spoken about in analyst and media circles, which is why I thought I'd create a discussion. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/09/13/the-nfl-has-an-offensive-line-crisis/?utm_term=.93b77b7c6de9 http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2017/sep/17/several-lines-offensive-early-20170917/ I do agree with what you say about letting it play out though. This isn't an overreaction, I think lines have been getting progressively worse. But as you say, lets watch it play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 55 minutes ago, spilltray said: This was a bad class at the top end for OL but there were a bunch of decent guys in rounds 2-4. The teams with putrid OLs consistently ignore the OL and draft anything else.] As far as "stats", one week hardly proves regression. Just because offenses had a down week doesn't make it a systematic problem with OL as a whole. We'll see if it continues, but I wouldn't be totally surprised. You have plenty of teams that either have ignored/done awful with the OL, have either poor or inexperienced QBs, or offensive issues in general. I don't think you can pin offensive output being down on OL. For Seattle and Cincinnati sure maybe mostly OL, but the Jets for example are putrid top to bottom. I think you can add in that teams for the last decade, have switched the type of defensive players they draft, a group that can defense the pass, but is likely weaker at defending the run, smaller, quicker faster players at position wich used to be manned by the opposite to stop the run. DC have had an awful lot of time to design defenses to stop modern offenses that rely on the pass and that has little to do with how good your OL is. Dallas is really exposing how weak defenses are at stopping the run today and I think you will see more and more team exploiting this weakness and going to a running attack. When Bill Walsh designed the WCO, it took teams a decade to learn how to defend it, so it should come as no surprise that teams are beginning to catch up with modern offenses that rely mostly on the pass. Blaming on the OL is really ignoring the real problem offenses are beginning to be effected by. Another point of using the run as your main attacking weapon is, that you do not need a great franchise QB to exploit it, so it is going to really appeal to teams that are weak at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PackyAttacky Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Oh nice someone posted the Washington post article. I agree. Too much spread crap from college and as a scout how can anyone tell if these guys are good. Think the cap plays into as well. The cap is set up so you cannot pay all your oline gotta pay everybody and they usually dont get paid. After seeing what Dallas did the last couple of years, you would think there would be more emphasis on it, but I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisEagles Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Polian was on Mike and Mike Friday and he thinks it is due to practice restrictions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanLegend Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Few teams bother investing properly in the o-line, and that includes in coaching them. Look at most of the successful o-lines right now. Cowboys drafted the stars on their line(Smith, Frederick, Martin), and Callahan/Pollack have developed those guys. Titans drafted their bookend tackles in the first round(Lewan, Conklin) and signed a solid center in free agency when they had the chance in Jones, and brought in Russ Grimm to coach them. Pittsburgh brought in one of the best position coaches ever in Munchak to coach up their guys on top of spending first round picks on Pouncey and Decastro. Washington drafted their bookend tackles(Williams in the first round, Moses in the 3rd), and spent a first round pick on Scherff, and has Bill Callahan to coach them. It's not just an issue of talent, it's an issue of coaching. Russ Grimm was sitting at home when the Titans gave him a call just because Ken Whisenhunt's stupidly bad offense made his o-lines look bad, no one bothered to look at what he'd done in Pittsburgh before Mularkey and Robinson scooped him up. Washington took advantage of Bill Callahan being available because they saw what he did for Dallas. Steelers wasted no time grabbing Munchak after we fired him as HC. Cowboys promoted the guy who learned for a couple years under Callahan. Spend the draft capital/money on the right players and have a competent o-line coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INbengalfan Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 10 hours ago, hburn said: Money is on the defensive side of the ball, look at all the contracts defensive linemen get compared to o line. Kids just don't want to be offensive lineman anymore. This. All day. The best big guys (as athletes) are going defense. In the not so distant past, good to great LTs were the second highest paid players on the team. Now, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcmurtry86 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 1 hour ago, TitanLegend said: Few teams bother investing properly in the o-line, and that includes in coaching them. Look at most of the successful o-lines right now. Cowboys drafted the stars on their line(Smith, Frederick, Martin), and Callahan/Pollack have developed those guys. Titans drafted their bookend tackles in the first round(Lewan, Conklin) and signed a solid center in free agency when they had the chance in Jones, and brought in Russ Grimm to coach them. Pittsburgh brought in one of the best position coaches ever in Munchak to coach up their guys on top of spending first round picks on Pouncey and Decastro. Washington drafted their bookend tackles(Williams in the first round, Moses in the 3rd), and spent a first round pick on Scherff, and has Bill Callahan to coach them. It's not just an issue of talent, it's an issue of coaching. Russ Grimm was sitting at home when the Titans gave him a call just because Ken Whisenhunt's stupidly bad offense made his o-lines look bad, no one bothered to look at what he'd done in Pittsburgh before Mularkey and Robinson scooped him up. Washington took advantage of Bill Callahan being available because they saw what he did for Dallas. Steelers wasted no time grabbing Munchak after we fired him as HC. Cowboys promoted the guy who learned for a couple years under Callahan. Spend the draft capital/money on the right players and have a competent o-line coach. A lot of it is coaching. The fundamentals a lot of these guys have are just so bad. It could be partially due to the offensive coordinator churn in the NFL where teams keep changing systems and coaches, disrupting the development of their raw players. 10 minutes ago, INbengalfan said: This. All day. The best big guys (as athletes) are going defense. In the not so distant past, good to great LTs were the second highest paid players on the team. Now, not so much. This is a lot of it too. Not a lot of good pro-style pro-ready OL coming out of the college ranks. With the league (both pro and college) becoming so pass heavy and reliant on speed and athleticism, every big guy with good feet is being converted to a pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I think fans just find it easy to throw the offensive line under the bus and/or have unrealistic expectations for their offensive lines. If it really was a league wide epidemic, then wouldn't we see sacks on the rise, rush averages on the decline, and offenses stunted in general? In reality, since the mid 2000s, league wide scoring has been higher than it's ever been since the merger. League wide sacks 2016- 1,118 2015- 1,187 2014- 1,212 2013- 1,295 2012- 1,169 2006- 1,164 League wide yards/rush 2016- 4.2 2015- 4.1 2014- 4.2 2013- 4.2 2012- 4.3 2006- 4.2 It's hard to measure offensive line performance, and, like corners, they're really only noticed when they screw up or are phenomenal (Dallas OL, Darrelle Revis), so it's very easy to think your team's OL is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 2 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said: I think fans just find it easy to throw the offensive line under the bus and/or have unrealistic expectations for their offensive lines. If it really was a league wide epidemic, then wouldn't we see sacks on the rise, rush averages on the decline, and offenses stunted in general? In reality, since the mid 2000s, league wide scoring has been higher than it's ever been since the merger. League wide sacks 2016- 1,118 2015- 1,187 2014- 1,212 2013- 1,295 2012- 1,169 2006- 1,164 League wide yards/rush 2016- 4.2 2015- 4.1 2014- 4.2 2013- 4.2 2012- 4.3 2006- 4.2 It's hard to measure offensive line performance, and, like corners, they're really only noticed when they screw up or are phenomenal (Dallas OL, Darrelle Revis), so it's very easy to think your team's OL is bad. Solid stats showing that the OL is not declining in any way, shape or form. In fact the stats indicate a slight improvement over 6 years. Puts an end to that argument!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I can't remember the Raiders ever having a better line then they do now. So thankful that Derek Carr can continue to progress behind such a great line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I honestly don't think it's any worse than it has been for the past several years. We're about 12 years removed from the last time the league was filled with quality offensive linemen. I don't see what Russell Wilson or Andy Dalton are dealing with now as being any worse than what Phillip Rivers or Andrew Luck have had for years, for instance. It's a unit with 5 players where if even one of them is bad or gets hurt it can cause considerable problems. They're aren't normally going to be many great units in that situation. I remember a decade ago, the Chiefs had one of the best OLs I've ever seen, and when Willie Roaf got hurt and then retired, having a bad player at LT just decimated the line in pass protection. 2 all-pros at G and a high quality C and one change on the line raised our sack rate by 2.3%. It's just a hard unit to build and maintain, and you need luck once you've reached that point to still keep it together. But that's nothing new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 There was a major article last week about how OLinemen are hard to come by. It's been that way for the past few seasons though. Aside from QB, players on the OLine have likely been the most difficult positions to field recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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