ramssuperbowl99 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 minute ago, ET80 said: How would you define elite This should be it's own topic tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animaltested Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 14 minutes ago, MWil23 said: @animaltested I do understand your overall point, especially in that these players are being "represented" by a union agreement that they haven't signed/agreed to (contract, benefits, etc.) in addition to not having a say where they land, and as a result, there's not a "market value"/negotiation in place for them right away. However, I'm also saying that I'm not going to, nor should I, feel bad/empathize with someone in that situation that will make more money in 2-5 years than I will in 20-30, and I came out of college in one of the worst recessions ever. Just like I don't think Ryan Tannehill is a "feel good story". The dude was making 8 figures in Miami holding a clip board after underachieving. That argument cuts both ways. I get ya, and I really get ya here. It is hard to emphasize with millionaires as the peasants we all are. I was just explaining how I overlook that to focus situation as a labor struggle. That aspect I can emphasize with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: All I'm arguing is that a reasonable adult should be able to look at a situation where someone could have 32 job offers is forced to only accept one because of a deal he never agreed to and was never represented in, and find some capacity to understand why he might be pissed off about it. I'm not trying to say he shouldn't be pissed off - I don't care about feelings (and that's a general statement on my world view if we're being honest). I'm thinking specific to the product at hand. To ensure it's the best possible product, you'd have to adhere to the current system. Is it the best system for the player? I don't know, probably not. Is it the best system for the league? I don't know, probably yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOUCAN Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 This is literally a nontopic. Joe simply saying he has leverage isn't a lie, and it's not a warning shot to the Bengals either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: This should be it's own topic tbh. No more topics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, ET80 said: I'm not trying to say he shouldn't be pissed off - I don't care about feelings (and that's a general statement on my world view if we're being honest). I'm thinking specific to the product at hand. To ensure it's the best possible product, you'd have to adhere to the current system. Is it the best system for the player? I don't know, probably not. Is it the best system for the league? I don't know, probably yes. Then I won't phrase it with feelings. Given the same situation, you should be able to rationalize why someone would go out of their way to act with the goal of disrupting the prescribed "you go where we tell you and shut up about it" system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, animaltested said: I get ya, and I really get ya here. It is hard to emphasize with millionaires as the peasants we all are. I was just explaining how I overlook that to focus situation as a labor struggle. That aspect I can emphasize with. I've said all along that the inconsistent "representation" that rookies and RB's get in this process is egregious. Basically a bunch of disgruntled veterans made it their life's mission to screw over the rookies on the old wage scale, which while legitimate, has a law of unintended consequences pertaining to RB's via draft slot, 2nd contracts, the Franchise Tag, team control, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I've said all along that the inconsistent "representation" that rookies and RB's get in this process is egregious. Basically a bunch of disgruntled veterans made it their life's mission to screw over the rookies on the old wage scale, which while legitimate, has a law of unintended consequences pertaining to RB's via draft slot, 2nd contracts, the Franchise Tag, team control, etc. You're giving the owners a pass that they don't deserve because you just expect the owners to try and screw the players. I agree there is something special about backstabbing rookies you should be on the same side of the negotiating table as, but the owners were the ones who fought for the rookie wage scale and the draft to begin with. It wasn't an NFL PA idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animaltested Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, ET80 said: How would you define elite player in this exercise? Ugh... I despise saying this, but the market. The same way teams figured out Eli Manning was worth Phillip Rivers and plus. Its rare currently, and there isn't anything preventing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said: Then I won't phrase it with feelings. Given the same situation, you should be able to rationalize why someone would go out of their way to act with the goal of disrupting the prescribed "you go where we tell you and shut up about it" system. I get it. I don't care, but I get it. The system in place has a relatively strong success rate in maintaining parity for the league, which ensures that there is a league further down the line. Why break it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animaltested Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, MWil23 said: I've said all along that the inconsistent "representation" that rookies and RB's get in this process is egregious. Basically a bunch of disgruntled veterans made it their life's mission to screw over the rookies on the old wage scale, which while legitimate, has a law of unintended consequences pertaining to RB's via draft slot, 2nd contracts, the Franchise Tag, team control, etc. Would love to see the Arbitration system bought to the NFL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ET80 said: I get it. I don't care, but I get it. Fair enough. 7 minutes ago, ET80 said: The system in place has a relatively strong success rate in maintaining parity for the league, which ensures that there is a league further down the line. Why break it? The following things didn't break football: Free agency The salary cap The draft Compensation picks Franchise tag Pro-offense rules Instant replay Less bad instant replay Adding tons of expansion teams Moving teams around to suckle the TV dong Games in Mexico and London The fact that everyone who plays is getting brain damage Why do we think football is at all fragile? It's not breaking any time soon. Remember when we "broke" college football a few years ago with the graduate transfer rule? The only reason we're in a Joe Burrow topic right now is because of that rule. And now in CFB kids can get paid in California and the NCAA is saying it will break the sport as we know it. Spoiler alert: it'll be fine. Changing the rules doesn't always result in the outcome you anticipate. I don't know what an NFL without the draft would be, but I know I'd watch and so would you and so would a lot of people. Edited February 19, 2020 by ramssuperbowl99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: The following things didn't break football: Free agency The salary cap The draft Compensation picks Franchise tag Pro-offense rules Instant replay Less bad instant replay Adding tons of expansion teams Moving teams around to suckle the TV dong Games in Mexico and London The fact that everyone who plays is getting brain damage Why do we think football is at all fragile? It's not breaking any time soon. Remember when we "broke" college football a few years ago with the graduate transfer rule? The only reason we're in a Joe Burrow topic right now is because of that rule. And now in CFB kids can get paid in California and the NCAA is saying it will break the sport as we know it. Spoiler alert: it'll be fine. Changing the rules doesn't always result in the outcome you anticipate. I don't know what an NFL without the draft would be, but I know I'd watch and so would you and so would a lot of people. Most of those rules enforce parity (the others are just market things/technicality improvements). Getting rid of the draft and replacing it with rookie-FA would do the opposite of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 Just now, Yin-Yang said: Most of those rules enforce parity (the others are just market things/technicality improvements). Getting rid of the draft and replacing it with rookie-FA would do the opposite of that. Maybe, maybe not. Even if we knew the details of whatever the new system would be (free for all, teams get pools, etc. etc.) it'd be hard to predict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWil23 Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: You're giving the owners a pass that they don't deserve because you just expect the owners to try and screw the players. I agree there is something special about backstabbing rookies you should be on the same side of the negotiating table as, but the owners were the ones who fought for the rookie wage scale and the draft to begin with. It wasn't an NFL PA idea. Not my intention. I will say this though: 1. I do understand why a proven veteran should make more than the Top drafted counterpart at his position coming out (owners and players' sides) 2. Having a "salary cap" is intrinsically anti-business. If I'm a business owner, I should be able to pay any employee whatever their market value is based upon their performance in their field, and that money should be fully guaranteed unless there is "cause for termination". Therefore, a cap is intrinsically also bad per the argument of wages, control, etc. 3. The NFLPA should have never allowed a "Franchise Tag" in the new CBA with these tiered contracts. 5 years of control AND a salary cap TWICE in a row? Then a RB turns 28-29, and...? IMO, if I'm the NFLPA, I'm doing the following: *NO 17th Game *NO Franchise Tag, unless it's 110% of ANY POSITION'S contract. If they're a "Franchise Player", pay them as such regardless of position *LIFETIME medical based upon service time and/or documented injuries sustained while playing, whether now or down the line should more medical information come to light (head injuries) JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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