Is Nicholson the answer at Safety?

[ripsean21]

3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

No one is saying they are Sean Taylor. I don't know if there will ever be another safety as complete as Sean Taylor was.

That being said, to act like other safeties don't have great range, can't make unbelievable plays on the ball and don't have great instincts themselves just doesn't hold any water either.

Good and great safeties are a cross between a corner and a linebacker and they are the ones most freed up to read offenses from deep, see plays as they develop and make plays. They are the ones who get blocked the least by OL which allows them to fly around in make plays in the run game. If the front 7 or corners don't  make a tackle in the run game or a pass gets off and the corners get beat, you need good players on the back end to keep those passes/mistakes from becoming big plays. 

Some say they are the furthest away from the line of scrimmage so they don't matter as much well when I watched the game Sunday night I seem to remember Swearinger and Nicholson mattering a whole hell of a lot. They matter, just in a different way than those closer to the line of scrimmage and if you have good ones who can cover, tackle and have good ball skills it makes a huge difference on a defense.

Preach because I value a great defensive backfield!!! There's a bunch of ways to be great but having rangy ballhawking safety's or one and a enforcer with good to great CB's you have something!!! I agree!!! We both catch it for saying we would take a top safety over the 2nd or 3rd best DL prospect. But I've been very impressed with our group so far

[turtle28]

Josh Norman, DJ Swearinger is the "quarterback" of the defense.

[Woz]

21 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Josh Norman, DJ Swearinger is the "quarterback" of the defense.

He's the captain and sets the tone. That doesn't mean his position suddenly vaults into the stratosphere in terms of value.

I think you overvalue the safety position, turtle, because simply you have seen two all-time-greats on your two teams (Polomalu and Taylor). But those guys are all-time greats. They are the unbelievable freaks that prove the rule.

[Ghostnote]

On 9/28/2017 at 3:15 PM, turtle28 said:

No one is saying they are Sean Taylor. I don't know if there will ever be another safety as complete as Sean Taylor was.

That being said, to act like other safeties don't have great range, can't make unbelievable plays on the ball and don't have great instincts themselves just doesn't hold any water either.

Good and great safeties are a cross between a corner and a linebacker and they are the ones most freed up to read offenses from deep, see plays as they develop and make plays. They are the ones who get blocked the least by OL which allows them to fly around in make plays in the run game. If the front 7 or corners don't  make a tackle in the run game or a pass gets off and the corners get beat, you need good players on the back end to keep those passes/mistakes from becoming big plays. 

Some say they are the furthest away from the line of scrimmage so they don't matter as much well when I watched the game Sunday night I seem to remember Swearinger and Nicholson mattering a whole hell of a lot. They matter, just in a different way than those closer to the line of scrimmage and if you have good ones who can cover, tackle and have good ball skills it makes a huge difference on a defense.

Sean Taylor was one of the best S's that I saw who could play up in the box and still be able to turn and run to track down deep balls. Polamalu was fantastic in the middle of the field. But he had a healthy Ryan Clark to help him be able to do so. Earl Thomas can cover the deep parts of the field from sideline to sideline and that allows the Seahawks to play a Single high S position. 

In terms of players wanting to play or be like Sean Taylor, Su'a Cravens said that he wanted to be like Taylor which is why he wore 36. Landon Collins and HaHa Clinton-Dix both wear 21 because they wanted to be like him. There are others that I cannot think of at this moment, but they are out there. 

What I like about our S's is they want to make a name for themselves. Swearinger is bringing that attitude and ability to his natural position at FS. Getting a good pass rush from the front 7 allows the freedom to not be in coverage for 6 or 7 seconds. The Raiders offensive line was or is one of the better units out there, and our defensive front pushed them around. That allows the back end to take more chances on passing play to create turnovers. 

It is a team sport and they should balance each other out, but to have a good front 7 impacts the back 4 more than the inverse. 

[turtle28]

16 hours ago, Woz said:

He's the captain and sets the tone. That doesn't mean his position suddenly vaults into the stratosphere in terms of value.

I think you overvalue the safety position, turtle, because simply you have seen two all-time-greats on your two teams (Polomalu and Taylor). But those guys are all-time greats. They are the unbelievable freaks that prove the rule.

Not true. I don't overvalue the position, others undervalue it. 

Again, not about just those 2 players. If I could yell this I would!

I hope you watched the Cooley Film breakdown where Swearinger was playing SS and listened to Carr's call at the line of scrimmage and then alerted the entire secondary what play they were going to run.

Nicholson intimidated their receivers when he hit Crabtree and knocked him out of the game. Swearinger leveled Lynch in the hole and set a tone for the rest of the game and I'm not sure Lynch played much after that hit.

So, safeties make a difference. The poor play of our DL & our safeties most of the last decade - save 2011 - has been the main reason the defense has been below average.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, mike23md said:

Sean Taylor was one of the best S's that I saw who could play up in the box and still be able to turn and run to track down deep balls. Polamalu was fantastic in the middle of the field. But he had a healthy Ryan Clark to help him be able to do so. Earl Thomas can cover the deep parts of the field from sideline to sideline and that allows the Seahawks to play a Single high S position. 

In terms of players wanting to play or be like Sean Taylor, Su'a Cravens said that he wanted to be like Taylor which is why he wore 36. Landon Collins and HaHa Clinton-Dix both wear 21 because they wanted to be like him. There are others that I cannot think of at this moment, but they are out there. 

What I like about our S's is they want to make a name for themselves. Swearinger is bringing that attitude and ability to his natural position at FS. Getting a good pass rush from the front 7 allows the freedom to not be in coverage for 6 or 7 seconds. The Raiders offensive line was or is one of the better units out there, and our defensive front pushed them around. That allows the back end to take more chances on passing play to create turnovers. 

It is a team sport and they should balance each other out, but to have a good front 7 impacts the back 4 more than the inverse. 

Well I don't disagree with that and it's been my position as well. I just don't agree with those who say that we don't need to get good safeties because they don't matter.

Of course I think the front 7 is more important but if you have a good front 7 and a poor secondary you're defense isn't going to be good either. 

If the best player on the board is a S we should take that player in the draft - if we don't have good safeties already. Put it is this way, a safety is not equal to a guard to me in the draft. A good safety is harder to find than a good guard and those trying to equate their position importance are wrong.

[Woz]

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

So, safeties make a difference. The poor play of our DL & our safeties most of the last decade - save 2011 - has been the main reason the defense has been below average.

This. Way more this than the latter.

Well that and trying to grab players for a scheme we play a third or less of the time on the field, and then wondering why they don't really work in the scheme we generally do play.

3 or 4 quality guys at DL will have a greater impact than 1 or 2 quality guys in the safety. It's just a numbers game and distance to the football.

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

I hope you watched the Cooley Film breakdown where Swearinger was playing SS and listened to Carr's call at the line of scrimmage and then alerted the entire secondary what play they were going to run.

And it was great. He's the captain on the field. He did his job, and did it well.

That means he's a good veteran player. It doesn't vaunt his position into some higher orbit of value.

Keep in mind that this is the first season that I can recall where the defensive quarterback is not an inside linebacker.

That points to "great player" more-so than "great position."

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

Of course I think the front 7 is more important but if you have a good front 7 and a poor secondary you're defense isn't going to be good either. 

You have a much higher chance of masking poor secondary play with a good front seven than masking poor defensive line play with a good back seven.

[turtle28]

My god, someone please shoot me

[Ghostnote]

8 hours ago, Woz said:

This. Way more this than the latter.

Well that and trying to grab players for a scheme we play a third or less of the time on the field, and then wondering why they don't really work in the scheme we generally do play.

3 or 4 quality guys at DL will have a greater impact than 1 or 2 quality guys in the safety. It's just a numbers game and distance to the football.

And it was great. He's the captain on the field. He did his job, and did it well.

That means he's a good veteran player. It doesn't vaunt his position into some higher orbit of value.

Keep in mind that this is the first season that I can recall where the defensive quarterback is not an inside linebacker.

That points to "great player" more-so than "great position."

You have a much higher chance of masking poor secondary play with a good front seven than masking poor defensive line play with a good back seven.

Carolina has been the best example of this especially during their superbowl run. 

[THESKINSFAN21]

Really hoping to see him continue to look good against the Chiefs. ??

[Jeezy Fanatic]

I actually agree with turtle in a sense, take a look at every elite defense in recent years and they have an elite centerfield safety. Chancellor allowed Seattle to do so much. Same with Reed for that Ravens. 

The issue is, it's very hard to find those guys. There's far more misses with guys like Kenny Phillips and the like then there are hits.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, Jeezy Fanatic said:

I actually agree with turtle in a sense, take a look at every elite defense in recent years and they have an elite centerfield safety. Chancellor allowed Seattle to do so much. Same with Reed for that Ravens. 

The issue is, it's very hard to find those guys. There's far more misses with guys like Kenny Phillips and the like then there are hits.

The fact that they are hard to find just backs up my point that when you have a chance to draft a good prospect at safety, you shouldn't pass on them.

Kenny Phillips was more of a SS that I remember correct? And from what I remember he played a lot like Landon Collins before he had his knee injury. I remember Phillips' knee injury derailing  a promising young career.

[Jeezy Fanatic]

18 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

The fact that they are hard to find just backs up my point that when you have a chance to draft a good prospect at safety, you shouldn't pass on them.

Kenny Phillips was more of a SS that I remember correct? And from what I remember he played a lot like Landon Collins before he had his knee injury. I remember Phillips' knee injury derailing  a promising young career.

He was a FS type at least in college, may have moved into the box because of injuries in the pros, I don't remember. I only mentioned him because coming out, he had a lot of the same ST26 comparisons and it obviously didn't work out

[lavar703]

There will never be another Sean Taylor. It wasn't Landon Collins, Taylor Mays and it's not going to be Derwin James either. He's a one-of-a-kind talent and that's just the way it is. Also, fans from other teams, please don't try to be the cool guy in the room and come in and tell everyone how overrated Taylor was because that's stupid and it makes you look stupid.

 

[TheGreeK1973]

12 hours ago, lavar703 said:

There will never be another Sean Taylor. It wasn't Landon Collins, Taylor Mays and it's not going to be Derwin James either. He's a one-of-a-kind talent and that's just the way it is. Also, fans from other teams, please don't try to be the cool guy in the room and come in and tell everyone how overrated Taylor was because that's stupid and it makes you look stupid.

 

The only player I would put with par on Sean Taylor would be Ed Reed. And still, Reed didn't bring that fear to the opposing WRs like Taylor did, nor the pure incredible play making ability Taylor did (see the fumble recovery and taking it to the house in our only playoff win in the 21st century).