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The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...


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3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

So you're saying he's not a great improvisor? We know that already, but I don't think that means he has low football IQ.

He is very good presnap and makes good decisions with the football.

Semantics I guess.

Point is that a good football IQ is a reference to the understanding of the game.  The saying itself is a narrow view of mental function within the game the same way a traditional IQ score is a narrow view of intelligence.  When Carr makes decisions under pressure he panics and the only thought is to get to the next play.  He may have a good understanding of the game and, scheme, and philosophy but he lacks the other mental aspects needed to b a top QB.  If you go off of his traditional IQ a score of 20 on the wonderlic is pretty low.  The average NFL player scores a 20 with 10 showing you are literate.  In 1983 a study was done to see wonderlic scores based upon profession.  

Bank teller – 22

Cashier – 21

Firefighter – 21

Clerical worker – 21

Machinist – 21

Receptionist – 21

Train conductor – 21

Craftsman – 18

Security guard – 17

Welder – 17

Warehouseman – 15

Janitor – 14

A 20 is suppose to be average intelligence.  

He is good presnap which shows the understanding of what he is suppose to do.  I disagree with the second part.  Injuries and fear could play a part but that is also part of the mental makeup.  I can not say for sure what is going on in his head but he seems to be motivated by fear to the point that he forgets sometimes what the situation is.  No reason why he should make rookie mistakes like throwing the ball away on 4th down.  I guess the best way I can sum up his mental abilities is that he seems unable to concentrate on 2 things at the same time.

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2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Point is that a good football IQ is a reference to the understanding of the game.  The saying itself is a narrow view of mental function within the game the same way a traditional IQ score is a narrow view of intelligence.  When Carr makes decisions under pressure he panics and the only thought is to get to the next play.  He may have a good understanding of the game and, scheme, and philosophy but he lacks the other mental aspects needed to b a top QB.  If you go off of his traditional IQ a score of 20 on the wonderlic is pretty low.  The average NFL player scores a 20 with 10 showing you are literate.  In 1983 a study was done to see wonderlic scores based upon profession.  

Bank teller – 22

Cashier – 21

Firefighter – 21

Clerical worker – 21

Machinist – 21

Receptionist – 21

Train conductor – 21

Craftsman – 18

Security guard – 17

Welder – 17

Warehouseman – 15

Janitor – 14

A 20 is suppose to be average intelligence.  

He is good presnap which shows the understanding of what he is suppose to do.  I disagree with the second part.  Injuries and fear could play a part but that is also part of the mental makeup.  I can not say for sure what is going on in his head but he seems to be motivated by fear to the point that he forgets sometimes what the situation is.  No reason why he should make rookie mistakes like throwing the ball away on 4th down.  I guess the best way I can sum up his mental abilities is that he seems unable to concentrate on 2 things at the same time.

LOL You obviously don’t understand it is impossible for any human to concentrate on two things at once so what you are saying makes zero sense if that is how you evaluate one's intelligence.    

Edited by Frankie2Gunz
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36 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Point is that a good football IQ is a reference to the understanding of the game.  The saying itself is a narrow view of mental function within the game the same way a traditional IQ score is a narrow view of intelligence.  When Carr makes decisions under pressure he panics and the only thought is to get to the next play.  He may have a good understanding of the game and, scheme, and philosophy but he lacks the other mental aspects needed to b a top QB.  If you go off of his traditional IQ a score of 20 on the wonderlic is pretty low.  The average NFL player scores a 20 with 10 showing you are literate.  In 1983 a study was done to see wonderlic scores based upon profession.  

Bank teller – 22

Cashier – 21

Firefighter – 21

Clerical worker – 21

Machinist – 21

Receptionist – 21

Train conductor – 21

Craftsman – 18

Security guard – 17

Welder – 17

Warehouseman – 15

Janitor – 14

A 20 is suppose to be average intelligence.  

He is good presnap which shows the understanding of what he is suppose to do.  I disagree with the second part.  Injuries and fear could play a part but that is also part of the mental makeup.  I can not say for sure what is going on in his head but he seems to be motivated by fear to the point that he forgets sometimes what the situation is.  No reason why he should make rookie mistakes like throwing the ball away on 4th down.  I guess the best way I can sum up his mental abilities is that he seems unable to concentrate on 2 things at the same time.

I strongly disagree. When is the last time he threw it away on 4th down? That was a one time thing in a game we were down multiple scores.

Panics under pressure is a strong wording and I disagree. 95% of qb's are flustered by a player bearing down in their face.

He also knows how to get the ball out fast, which people call having a "quick processor" so it's not like he's slow to process things around him.

Motivated by fear?

I don't know man I don't see this at all.

We definitely weren't losing games because of Carr's low football IQ that's for sure.

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10 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

LOL You obviously don’t understand it is impossible for any human to concentrate on two things at once so what you are saying makes zero sense if that is how you evaluate one's intelligence.    

So I guess Russell Wilson being able to be aware of a pass rush while still concentrating on the WRs downfield is impossible.  What you are thinking of is people believing they are good at multitasking.   Switching between two separate tasks leads to problems for almost everyone like checking your phone while you are driving.  What I am talking about is more like driving down the road and then seeing in the middle of the road you do not want to hit with your car.  The person is less likely to crash if 1) they stay calm and remember surroundings and 2) react quickly to the changes.  Maybe focus is the wrong word.  He has a hard time staying aware of other aspects when he is dialed into one thing.  He has tunnel vision or hyper focus.  Which might be why his situational awareness is lacking sometimes and he gets rattled if you hit him hard.   There are more than a couple QBs in the league that are this way and I am sure that each QB has a certain level before they start reacting poorly.  Carr just has a lower threshold.  This is just one aspect of intelligence the same as some people are really bad test takers because they react poorly to stress.

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34 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

So I guess Russell Wilson being able to be aware of a pass rush while still concentrating on the WRs downfield is impossible.  What you are thinking of is people believing they are good at multitasking.   Switching between two separate tasks leads to problems for almost everyone like checking your phone while you are driving.  What I am talking about is more like driving down the road and then seeing in the middle of the road you do not want to hit with your car.  The person is less likely to crash if 1) they stay calm and remember surroundings and 2) react quickly to the changes.  Maybe focus is the wrong word.  He has a hard time staying aware of other aspects when he is dialed into one thing.  He has tunnel vision or hyper focus.  Which might be why his situational awareness is lacking sometimes and he gets rattled if you hit him hard.   There are more than a couple QBs in the league that are this way and I am sure that each QB has a certain level before they start reacting poorly.  Carr just has a lower threshold.  This is just one aspect of intelligence the same as some people are really bad test takers because they react poorly to stress.

"Neurological science has demonstrated that the human brain is incapable of focusing on two things at once".

Once again you have no clue what you're talking about.  I thought it was common knowledge and assumed that everyone knew that humans lack the ability to concentrate on two things at once.  Clearly that was an incorrect assumption considering you based "intelligence" off of that characteristic that no human possesses.

Also what you're stating about Carr is not fact and your worthless opinion.  He was the 9th rated passer under pressure in 2020 and 2nd in deep ball throws which is clearly not in line with your opinion.

https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats-top-10-qbs-under-pressure-in-2020-ryan-fitzpatrick-outshines-comp

 

Passer rating: 77.2

Completion percentage: 53.5%

CPOE: +2.3%

 

Carr scored a tally in his favor in the battle against his haters with an appearance on our best deep passers list, and he gets another one here with this selection. Carr earned his position by proving that he was unafraid of using his arm to get the Raiders out of trouble, averaging 8.7 yards per attempt under pressure (second-highest mark in the NFL). The key for Carr was a quick release in 2020, posting a 111.6 passer rating, 13 touchdown passes and just two interceptions on quick passes (time to throw under 2.5 seconds). Interestingly, Carr was actually worse when he had extended time to throw (four or more seconds), finishing with a passer rating of 76.2 on such attempts. Speeding Carr up is, in fact, a bad idea for opposing defenses, it seems.

 

Carr was slightly worse under pressure in 2020 than he was in 2019, when he finished as one of three quarterbacks with a passer rating of 100 or better both under pressure and not under pressure (the other two were Drew Brees and Ryan Tannehill). In that season, he was the only quarterback who was better under pressure (103.7) than not (100.3), but his 2020 rating of 77.2 is still very good, as evidenced by his appearance here. Hate all you want on Carr, but don't get in his face -- or he might make you and your band of doubters pay with a completion.

Deep attempts: 24-of-52, 968 yards, 10:1 TD-to-INT ratio, 124.2 passer rating

Comp: 46.2%

xComp: 31.7%

CPOE: +14.5%

 

GM Mike Mayock was not shy about expressing the confidence he has in Carr this offseason. And after looking at the QB's deep passing numbers, it's easy to understand why the team decided to maintain the status quo at the position. Carr posted an impressive CPOE of +14.5 percent and passer rating of 124.2 on deep throws last season. His TD-INT ratio of 10:1 explains his stellar rating, but what's even more encouraging about Carr's performance was how well he played when under duress. Carr led the NFL with 11 completions, 426 passing yards and six touchdowns on deep passes against the blitz in 2020. He also posted the second-highest expected points added on deep passes at 60.2. Carr took a massive year-to-year leap when going deep, posting a CPOE improvement of +15.1 percentage points on downfield attempts, lifting himself out of the negative and well into positive territory. He did this all despite a relatively quiet debut season from deep threat Henry Ruggs III, who needs to improve at getting in and out of his breaks as he enters Year Two, per Mayock. Carr might wish he still had free-agent departure Nelson Agholor, though, as the wideout accounted for six deep passing touchdowns in 2020, the second-most in the NFL behind Tyreek Hill's eight. Regardless, Carr had a strong response for anyone questioning his ability to throw the deep ball in 2020.

 
 
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10 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

I strongly disagree. When is the last time he threw it away on 4th down? That was a one time thing in a game we were down multiple scores.

Panics under pressure is a strong wording and I disagree. 95% of qb's are flustered by a player bearing down in their face.

He also knows how to get the ball out fast, which people call having a "quick processor" so it's not like he's slow to process things around him.

Motivated by fear?

I don't know man I don't see this at all.

We definitely weren't losing games because of Carr's low football IQ that's for sure.

I have said that he is improving with his panicking but he still has a hard time adjusting.  Getting the ball out quickly is more a product of a good pre-snap decision.  He figures out what he wants to do before the snap and therefore gets it out quickly.   If you can fool him and take it away he is not as good because he has a hard time adjusting mid play.  Once it is not there and he has to start processing new information you can see the panic in his feet.  Like I said in the post above every QB has a certain level where they start making poor decisions from getting hit but Carr's level where it starts to negatively impact him is lower and I should have mentioned lower than I would like.  Not saying he has never done it but Carr is not the type of QB that keeps his eyes downfield when he knows he is going to get hit too complete a pass.  He has the mentality that why should I take a hit now when there will be another play, another drive, or another game.  Motivated by fear just means he is risk adverse.  A lot of people are this way and there are certain levels.  Being risk adverse to getting hit probably had a lot to do with the injuries and like I have said in the past after 2016 and 2017 Carr was like Maverick after Goose died.  What I do not like about his being risk adverse is his not willing to be more aggressive when the game circumstances dictate it because he does not want to throw an interception.  Your acceptable level of risk needs to change as game circumstances change.  Carr does not.  Late in the game and being down you need to sometimes extend plays or take more risk.  Carr will still run the script.  I definitely think he is an above average QB and if he works out a few problems can easily be a top 10 QB.  But his issues are all between the ears and an average IQ is part of it.

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19 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

"Neurological science has demonstrated that the human brain is incapable of focusing on two things at once".

Once again you have no clue what you're talking about.  I thought it was common knowledge and assumed that everyone knew that humans lack the ability to concentrate on two things at once.  Clearly that was an incorrect assumption considering you based "intelligence" off of that characteristic that no human possesses.

Also what you're stating about Carr is not fact and your worthless opinion.  He was the 9th rated passer under pressure in 2020 and 2nd in deep ball throws which is clearly not in line with your opinion.

https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats-top-10-qbs-under-pressure-in-2020-ryan-fitzpatrick-outshines-comp

Yes you are correct that people perform very poorly when trying to concentrate on multiple separate tasks at the same time or quickly changing.  What I am talking about is 2 separate aspects of the same task.  If this was impossible a WR could not run a route and catch the ball at the same time and a DB would not be able to cover said receiver and react to the ball in the air.  Now these might not happen at the exact same time but the ability to seamlessly switch between them quickly is extremely important.  It goes much deeper than this but I believe this is deep enough.

"Interestingly, Carr was actually worse when he had extended time to throw (four or more seconds), finishing with a passer rating of 76.2 on such attempts. Speeding Carr up is, in fact, a bad idea for opposing defenses, it seems."

This right here shows some of what I was saying in the post above.  He is good pre-snap and getting it out quickly because he knows where he wants to go before the snap just like Brady a lot of the time.  When you can fool him he struggles and makes poor decisions.  He can stick to a script and repeat everything a coach says, high football IQ, but when bullets start flying and he has to think on the go his brain power diminishes.  He has a very low threshold to stress.  Is it a side effect to injuries or poor line play?  I do not know but like I have said he has improved but the majority of his problems are in between his ears.  Not that he is a bad QB but for him to take the next step he needs to fix those deficiencies.  He is above average under pressure if it happens quickly and his pre-snap read is correct is what I get from this article.  Or maybe he just had crap WRs that did not practice scramble drills enough.  Have to remember why this conversation started and it was why do we not use more no huddle and I agree that Carr is much better in an up-tempo offence.

One caveat is that having a high football IQ is a misleading statement.  High football IQ is a high level of understanding when it comes to football.  IQ is more about how quickly you can process information and not how much information you have.  You can have a very low IQ but have a ton of knowledge because you put in a lot of time and effort to get there.  Someone with a higher IQ would need less time and effort.  So if they put in the same time and effort they should have a better result if everything else remains constant.  I have never questioned Carr's work ethic which is why he is so good pre-snap that leads to him being so good in getting the ball out quickly.  It is when he has to think on the fly and process new information he was not expecting that he runs into problems.  Tom Brady is very similar to Carr in how they react but Brady has a much higher traditional IQ so his overall outcome is higher than Carr's.  At the same time you can rattle Brady and get him to make bad decisions but he is much more difficult to back into that corner. 

I hope this makes sense and I am not rambling on.  There is probably a much easier and concise way of saying this but I am trying to day trade at the same time as concentrating on this topic which is limiting my ability to succeed in either one.

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47 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Yes you are correct that people perform very poorly when trying to concentrate on multiple separate tasks at the same time or quickly changing.  What I am talking about is 2 separate aspects of the same task.  If this was impossible a WR could not run a route and catch the ball at the same time and a DB would not be able to cover said receiver and react to the ball in the air.  Now these might not happen at the exact same time but the ability to seamlessly switch between them quickly is extremely important.  It goes much deeper than this but I believe this is deep enough.

"Interestingly, Carr was actually worse when he had extended time to throw (four or more seconds), finishing with a passer rating of 76.2 on such attempts. Speeding Carr up is, in fact, a bad idea for opposing defenses, it seems."

This right here shows some of what I was saying in the post above.  He is good pre-snap and getting it out quickly because he knows where he wants to go before the snap just like Brady a lot of the time.  When you can fool him he struggles and makes poor decisions.  He can stick to a script and repeat everything a coach says, high football IQ, but when bullets start flying and he has to think on the go his brain power diminishes.  He has a very low threshold to stress.  Is it a side effect to injuries or poor line play?  I do not know but like I have said he has improved but the majority of his problems are in between his ears.  Not that he is a bad QB but for him to take the next step he needs to fix those deficiencies.  He is above average under pressure if it happens quickly and his pre-snap read is correct is what I get from this article.  Or maybe he just had crap WRs that did not practice scramble drills enough.  Have to remember why this conversation started and it was why do we not use more no huddle and I agree that Carr is much better in an up-tempo offence.

One caveat is that having a high football IQ is a misleading statement.  High football IQ is a high level of understanding when it comes to football.  IQ is more about how quickly you can process information and not how much information you have.  You can have a very low IQ but have a ton of knowledge because you put in a lot of time and effort to get there.  Someone with a higher IQ would need less time and effort.  So if they put in the same time and effort they should have a better result if everything else remains constant.  I have never questioned Carr's work ethic which is why he is so good pre-snap that leads to him being so good in getting the ball out quickly.  It is when he has to think on the fly and process new information he was not expecting that he runs into problems.  Tom Brady is very similar to Carr in how they react but Brady has a much higher traditional IQ so his overall outcome is higher than Carr's.  At the same time you can rattle Brady and get him to make bad decisions but he is much more difficult to back into that corner. 

I hope this makes sense and I am not rambling on.  There is probably a much easier and concise way of saying this but I am trying to day trade at the same time as concentrating on this topic which is limiting my ability to succeed in either one.

Hopefully you're better at trading stocks than formulating an opinion on Carr which is clearly flawed and not based on facts.  You're grasping at straws trying you back up an opinion that is flat out wrong....  You say he doesn't play well under duress or when "bullets are flying" and clearly that is false.

I’m curious, why exactly are you basing your opinion on? It’s clearly not facts. 

His TD-INT ratio of 10:1 explains his stellar rating, but what's even more encouraging about Carr's performance was how well he played when under duress. Carr led the NFL with 11 completions, 426 passing yards and six touchdowns on deep passes against the blitz in 2020.

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42 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Hopefully you're better at trading stocks than formulating an opinion on Carr which is clearly flawed and not based on facts.  You're grasping at straws trying you back up an opinion that is flat out wrong....  You say he doesn't play well under duress or when "bullets are flying" and clearly that is false.

His TD-INT ratio of 10:1 explains his stellar rating, but what's even more encouraging about Carr's performance was how well he played when under duress. Carr led the NFL with 11 completions, 426 passing yards and six touchdowns on deep passes against the blitz in 2020.

"Interestingly, Carr was actually worse when he had extended time to throw (four or more seconds), finishing with a passer rating of 76.2 on such attempts. Speeding Carr up is, in fact, a bad idea for opposing defenses, it seems."

Carr makes good pre-snap reads but when he is wrong he struggles.  We can debate why he struggles but this stat clearly shows it.  I believe his struggles come from mental deficiencies in processing new and unexpected information most likely related to past injuries.  This inability to clearly think on the fly while trying to stay within the offense is why Gruden does not trust Carr to run his offense in a no huddle fashion combined with Gruden wanting to win TOP.  One of the reasons why Gannon's best year statistically was under Callahan and not Gruden.  I do not know how many plays a team has designed for a QB to hold onto the ball for 4+ seconds but I would imagine it is small with a lot of 7 step drop backs.  This leads me to believe the lowered passer rating is directly related to plays where Carr needs to think on the go.  Now this gets even more complicated if you try to factor in what amount of pressures happened under 4 seconds but I would say that most that did Carr probably handled the situation well because he was still on script.  

Back to IQ we already know Carr has what is considered an average wonderlic score for football players and we know he also received a college education.  It is known that test taking and very specifically repeated IQ test practice leads to a much higher score among other variables like being a native speaker of the language the test is given in.  Carr having a good college education and I am sure he practiced the wonderlic test should have lead to an increased score.  If you wanted to test Carr's true IQ with a test he has not trained for I can guarantee you his score is more than a few points lower.  He would probably be in the 15-17 range and therefore have a below average IQ.  Not saying he is stupid because you can overcome a low IQ with time and work but when put in a situation that you have not practiced you will revert back to your baseline level.  Therefore he is good at things he works on because of his work ethic but does poorly when taken off script.  I am sure he has worked very hard to improve his ability to function under pressure but not all pressure comes from a 300 linemen in your face but that is how they measure it in football.  I am sure when he goes of script he starts thinking to much and putting pressure on himself that leads to him performing below what we would expect.  That is why I used the phrase bad test taker earlier because that is a real issue that people have that it looks like he might have also.  

His 10:1 TD ratio is probably has more to do with him being risk adverse.  He is average when it comes to absolute TDs.  

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1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Hopefully you're better at trading stocks than formulating an opinion on Carr which is clearly flawed and not based on facts. 

I am green today so no complaints.  Made back my loses from the crap that happened the past couple days.

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2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Hopefully you're better at trading stocks than formulating an opinion on Carr which is clearly flawed and not based on facts.  You're grasping at straws trying you back up an opinion that is flat out wrong....  You say he doesn't play well under duress or when "bullets are flying" and clearly that is false.

I’m curious, why exactly are you basing your opinion on? It’s clearly not facts. 

His TD-INT ratio of 10:1 explains his stellar rating, but what's even more encouraging about Carr's performance was how well he played when under duress. Carr led the NFL with 11 completions, 426 passing yards and six touchdowns on deep passes against the blitz in 2020.

The problem with everything you're putting up(which I agree with all of it by the way and post a lot of the stuff myself concerning Carr) is that peoples problem with Carr isn't what he does it's just the fact that the Raiders don't win. So it doesn't really matter what you show people because they're going to always point back to the win loss column and his record as a starter. 

 

Edited by Jeremy408
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15 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

manziel had a higher wonderlic score than peyton

Like I said it is just one part of the measurement.  No matter the IQ we know one had an incredible work ethic and the other not so much.  I do not get how this turned into such a big deal.  The original conversation was why do we not run more no huddle.  Which I think we should and that Carr would be better at.  My original statement was more about Gruden not trusting Carr's ability to run the offense that way and not whether Carr can or not.

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1 hour ago, drfrey13 said:

I am green today so no complaints.  Made back my loses from the crap that happened the past couple days.

I'm in biotech and it's been a GREAT couple of days. Biogen approval lifted a LOT of other names. Sold most of my about to expire options and holding some Fannie preferred for SCOTUS decision. Will add if it dips and trim or close depending on the POP. Going to suck if they don't have a decision before recess. Will also play soon to expire options in biotech names after they cool down. Unless music stops and market finally corrects, then I'll just get out of the way. LOL 

EDIT: Oh and on the topic of Carr. i think of it like mountain biking. I look to where I want to go, not the rock to avoid or the cliff to tumble off. I think his injuries got him focusing on those negatives and he played accordingly. That's why no huddle helps because he has no time to focus on the negatives and just react. that's where all the reps, practice and hard work done before hand kick in like muscle memory. sometimes you have the unexpected happen (rock, ditch/QB pressure WR slips) but if you're in the moment and loose already focusing on what you want then the chances of it working out better increase. He's working out of the injury mindset back into a focus on what you want mindset. 

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1 hour ago, G said:

I'm in biotech and it's been a GREAT couple of days. Biogen approval lifted a LOT of other names. Sold most of my about to expire options and holding some Fannie preferred for SCOTUS decision. Will add if it dips and trim or close depending on the POP. Going to suck if they don't have a decision before recess. Will also play soon to expire options in biotech names after they cool down. Unless music stops and market finally corrects, then I'll just get out of the way. LOL 

EDIT: Oh and on the topic of Carr. i think of it like mountain biking. I look to where I want to go, not the rock to avoid or the cliff to tumble off. I think his injuries got him focusing on those negatives and he played accordingly. That's why no huddle helps because he has no time to focus on the negatives and just react. that's where all the reps, practice and hard work done before hand kick in like muscle memory. sometimes you have the unexpected happen (rock, ditch/QB pressure WR slips) but if you're in the moment and loose already focusing on what you want then the chances of it working out better increase. He's working out of the injury mindset back into a focus on what you want mindset. 

I am planning on sticking to day trading but I have found myself in some swing trades.  Holding UONE up to Juneteenth.  Got a couple short squeeze positions in AMC and CLOV.  I am also waiting on a cup and handle to play out in EYES that started May 12th on the daily chart.  After these I am going back to strictly day trading.  I am not a big fan of investing.  I like to get in and out quickly.  Helps me sleep at night.

I think you have valid points when it comes to Carr.  I was trying to word my perspective in a way to not offend people or over simplifying the subject.  So many moving parts when it comes to the mental side of sports.  Carr has had some obstacles to overcome.  I want to see him elevate himself and the team this year.  Not that he is a bad QB but I believe he can be better than what he has shown.  I want to see clutch Carr from 2016 combined with a player that can execute in all aspects.  Redzone efficiency is the #1 aspect I want to see this year from the team.  You can argue Carr vs Gruden on this one but I think it is both of them.  Last time this team broke 60% TDs/red zone was 2015 but we were also 17th in scoring.  We were 10th in scoring last year but 23rd in TD/RZ.  If we could put it together with an average defense this team will be a contender.  On the plus side Carr has shown improvement.

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