The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[dante9876]

1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I like Maxx but to think he is amongst the elite pass rushers of the league is insane.  Hunter, Garrett, Donald, both Bosa's, and Watt are on a different level than Maxx,  We need to pay and keep him but he doesn't deserve to get paid on the same level as those players.  

I love his motor and heart but physically he is limited in comparison to the players mentioned above.  Fair market value for Maxx would be in the 17ish range per season.  

It's funny. Carr isn't on the same level as some of the 40 mill a year guys either but you have no issue giving him that. Maxx should be afforded same. If his deal is next he doesn't have to be on their level he just next one up. Or is that only for qbs

[bucksavage1]

5 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Exactly. The salary cap is all about how you structure contracts and move money around. I've been waiting for the mass exodus of talent in New Orleans for decades. 

KC paid Mahomes the largest contract ever for a QB and paid Chris Jones at the same time. 

Brady made less than some QBs on a year to year basis, but was still among the highest paid. His "team friendly" approach was taking more bonus money, short contracts and being able renegotiate.

There is an art to the cap. The best players don't reach FA unless the teams want them too. 

The Saints have been in Salary cap hell but they also had Loomis as GM since 2002 working the books. 
 

The mass exodus could happen this season as well. They are expected to lose Armstead and Williams 

[Devilshark69]

Yeah, but that’s probably waaay more related to no brees + no Payton. Not the salary cap.

[BackinBlack]

55 minutes ago, Devilshark69 said:

Yeah, but that’s probably waaay more related to no brees + no Payton. Not the salary cap.

I mean I think they go hand in hand. When you have a HoF QB and you believe he is about to retire, you go all in IMO.
The Saints definitely moved money around, to give Brees a chance his last 5 years. 

I think thats why Rodgers got so angry with GB, until 2 years ago they never did anything really in FA, while his NFC competitors were giving their HoF QBs resources. 

HoF QB by itself isnt enough anymore. The Rams will trade for talent, the Bucs brought in Brady who recruited talent, Brees and Saints got aggressive. GB stayed their course, and ultimately couldve cost Rodgers a SB or two in doing so

[bucksavage1]

Back on topic, can we field a championship caliber team by paying Carr 40m per year? That’s the dilemma. We need to be able to retain our top players (Maxx, Waller, Hunter) as well as round the team with talented players 

 

[BackinBlack]

7 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said:

Back on topic, can we field a championship caliber team by paying Carr 40m per year? That’s the dilemma. We need to be able to retain our top players (Maxx, Waller, Hunter) as well as round the team with talented players 

 

It would be tough. We would need the cap to go up, I really hope the 40 mil is just from extension talk. where it would be a 2yr 80 mil extension, but would essentially be 3yr 100mil.
In that case yes, I think we could. 

[bucksavage1]

https://heavy.com/sports/las-vegas-raiders/derek-carr-contract-extension-mark-davis/?fbclid=IwAR1pfvnNDQhMUz8sMa-0YsQC5vV-AZCq8EXGp_xDP8-HmFw4zUBmdbIbzy4
 

“

And that’s where owner Mark Davis, president Dan Ventrelle and senior vice president Tom Delaney come in. They are going to try to stay in the shadows on this, but I have a flashlight and there is definitely a financial number on Carr that they won’t go over.

Buckle up.”

Edited February 17, 2022 by bucksavage1

[Chali21]

20 hours ago, dante9876 said:

It's funny. Carr isn't on the same level as some of the 40 mill a year guys either but you have no issue giving him that. Maxx should be afforded same. If his deal is next he doesn't have to be on their level he just next one up. Or is that only for qbs

The positions are important but a QB is infinitely more important. The niners have Nick Bosa whose much better than Maxx but they can’t get over the hump because of their liability at QB. Losing Maxx won’t hamstrung the team nearly as much as losing a QB. Pass Rush can be generated getting a QB who can execute everything a offensive coach wants is very difficult. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

1 hour ago, Chali21 said:

The positions are important but a QB is infinitely more important. The niners have Nick Bosa whose much better than Maxx but they can’t get over the hump because of their liability at QB. Losing Maxx won’t hamstrung the team nearly as much as losing a QB. Pass Rush can be generated getting a QB who can execute everything a offensive coach wants is very difficult. 

Look what Mack did for the Bears... nothing.  While I would love to keep Maxx, he is not amongst the eilte pass rushers of the league and should not command that type of cash.  Same goes for Renfrow as he is a limited slot WR, he is not and will never be Julio Jones in his prime.

We have a franchise QB and he needs to get locked up.  I know it, JM knows it and Ziegler knows it.  Carr will get paid and rightfully so. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, Chali21 said:

The positions are important but a QB is infinitely more important. The niners have Nick Bosa whose much better than Maxx but they can’t get over the hump because of their liability at QB. Losing Maxx won’t hamstrung the team nearly as much as losing a QB. Pass Rush can be generated getting a QB who can execute everything a offensive coach wants is very difficult. 

Niners defense is why they made the playoffs same with us. Before maxx we had no pass rush since Mack left. Maxx is arguably just as important to us as bosa is to sf. I’d also argue we can’t get over the hump cause of qb play lol

[dante9876]

2 hours ago, Chali21 said:

The positions are important but a QB is infinitely more important. The niners have Nick Bosa whose much better than Maxx but they can’t get over the hump because of their liability at QB. Losing Maxx won’t hamstrung the team nearly as much as losing a QB. Pass Rush can be generated getting a QB who can execute everything a offensive coach wants is very difficult. 

We already did that. Than this forum cried for 4 years about having no pass rush and defense for carr. No way should we repeat the same experiment again. Maxx has gotten better ever year. This is coming from a person who argued early in the year with @MrOaktown_56that crosby was overrated. He improved his run defense and generate great pass rush with no scheme to help or a great secondary to help. Bosa a beast but he has been surrounded by talent and schemes to help. Maxx dont have to get paid the most. But he should get market value that isn't far off. 

 

Qb is more important, doesn't mean its the only position that should get money. It's qb than pass rushers. And letting homegrown pass rushers walk again would be ridiculous. 

[Geezy]

On 2/16/2022 at 8:57 PM, dante9876 said:

And do you think that team is good. Sean payton literally just ran away from them. Eventually you gotta let good players go. Bengals are very happy about the saints cap problems. 

But I'm kinda on your side on this.  I think fans tend to over rate the cap. Teams that know what they doing can work around it. But if you got a top paid qb. You need to be able to build a good roster through draft or that qb better be able to cover up for the holes or both. 

They’ve been in the mix for how long? Until Brees retired, then even Jameis had them at 5-2 before he got hurt. They key to paying your stars is drafting well so you don’t have to spread so much money out on FAs, that’s where we been lacking. Good teams let good players go and replace those players with younger cheaper players. 

[BackinBlack]

1 hour ago, dante9876 said:

And letting homegrown pass rushers walk again would be ridiculous. 

dont let our terrible drafting fool you into thinking we let Mack walk. 
Easy to do it seems, but we traded Mack and if our drafting had been better it wouldnt hurt as bad. 
If we took say DK and Justin Jefferson at the spots we got with Mack.

We would be loaded at WR, with those 2 Renfrow and Waller, wed have a passing attack better then the Bengals IMO.

[Chali21]

1 hour ago, dante9876 said:

We already did that. Than this forum cried for 4 years about having no pass rush and defense for carr. No way should we repeat the same experiment again. Maxx has gotten better ever year. This is coming from a person who argued early in the year with @MrOaktown_56that crosby was overrated. He improved his run defense and generate great pass rush with no scheme to help or a great secondary to help. Bosa a beast but he has been surrounded by talent and schemes to help. Maxx dont have to get paid the most. But he should get market value that isn't far off. 

 

Qb is more important, doesn't mean its the only position that should get money. It's qb than pass rushers. And letting homegrown pass rushers walk again would be ridiculous. 

He’s improved but he hasn’t been Mack levels of dominate. That’s a big difference because if you pay a guy who can’t take that step it will hurt the team. 
 

Salary cap doesn’t matter when you hit on the guys you pay, it only matters when you miss on the guys you pay. 
 

Now I don’t think it’s a binary choice of giving Crosby top dollar or he walks. He doesn’t have the same kind of leverage that most players do in the open market. Same with Renferow. They might make more than what the Raiders are prepared to offer them but that doesn’t mean they’ll be the top paid at their positions. Crosby is good and certainly is someone I’d like to keep but not at the same price as the Bosa’s and Mack’s of the league. 

[Chali21]

1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Niners defense is why they made the playoffs same with us. Before maxx we had no pass rush since Mack left. Maxx is arguably just as important to us as bosa is to sf. I’d also argue we can’t get over the hump cause of qb play lol

The Niners have significantly more talent on both sides of the roster. There is no way that the Raiders could keep Rodgers to one TD in Lambeau.
 

They’re probably going to lose their best player in the secondary, they have a Frankenstein’s monster of a LB corps, and they have holes on the DLine. We keep saying that if the Raiders upgrade the secondary Maxx will look better but with in my opinion it’ll take a season or two to get to that position.