Frankie2Gunz Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, drfrey13 said: This actually helps @NYRaider's argument. "We've won 39 games with Carr at QB and won 34 games in the previous 6 seasons before he got here with 10 different QB's starting games for us during that stretch." We have had horrible offensive peices for over a decade and Carr has probably had better weapons then the 10 QBs who started the previous 6 years before he got here yet he has averaged less than 1 win per season more than the 10 QBs before him. If you remove the 1 amazing season our team had, which I do not have to do to make the point, it is really bad. https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/14/derek-carrs-53-tds-through-two-years-second-only-to-marino/ One QB had more career TD passes after their first 2 season in NFL history and you're trying to pump some lame narrative that Carr has had 1 good season (2016, his 3rd season he was in the MVP hunt until he broke his leg) and all the rest "really bad". Come on guys, you really can't believe that can you? The guy has had a terrible D and supporting cast since he has been in the league, constant coaching turnover and he has posted some pretty impressive numbers. Surround him with talent and you will see him playing back to a pro bowl level.... Mark my words. Edited July 7, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/14/derek-carrs-53-tds-through-two-years-second-only-to-marino/ One QB had more career TD passes after their first 2 season in NFL history and you're trying to pump some lame narrative that Carr has had 1 good season (2016, his 3rd season he was in the MVP hunt until he broke his leg) and all the rest "really bad". Come on guys, you really can't believe that can you? The guy has had a terrible D and supporting cast since he has been in the league, constant coaching turnover and he has posted some pretty impressive numbers. Surround him with talent and you will see him playing back to a pro bowl level.... Mark my words. My entire point was from 2008 to 2013 we did not have great QBs with bad talent around them and they managed 34 wins. We have had Carr surrounded with better talent, still not good, and he has managed 39 wins. He had good talent and he played well. 2014,2015, and 2016 the trajectory looked great and we all had thoughts of a Super Bowl contender because of the team. There was a spark and then it was snuffed out. The MVP talk is overblown and the real reason we were so successful, he played a part in this, was our TO ratio was amazing. I do not put all the blame on Carr but I do not think he is the type of QB you go all in on. You can win a championship with him but he will not win you a championship. Do you understand the distinction I am making here. He is to risk adverse to carry a team because you have to be willing to loss everything to win everything. Just not the type of QB he is now. Talent, coaching, or injury does not change the fact that he is Maverick after Goose died. The ability is there but he refuses to pull the trigger. The argument is not Carr haters vs supporters. It is those who believe he can regain his form and those that believe there is something mentally that will not be fixed. I do not think anyone in here believes Carr does not have the physical talent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 2 hours ago, drfrey13 said: I can not argue the the Seahawks comp and it is easy to see that Wilson is light years better than Carr. Tannehill did out play Carr by a big margin but the stats for Henry are a little misleading and helped the QB play. Henry ran for almost 150 yards per game and 10 TDs the last six games and took over. The one average game he had they lost by a field goal. When the RB averages 6-8 yards a carry and has 20+ touches it is kind of hard to lose. Henry was the reason for 5 of their 9 wins. Although I believe Henry is better I really like how our O runs with a healthy Jacobs. This leads me back to Carr being an average QB that needs good play around him and does not elevate players like a WIlson. I still think Carr is a lesser version of Alex Smith until he proves he is a better version of Alex Smith but at the end of the day he is still Alex Smith. Except Alex wasn’t afraid to tuck it and run which is what imo made his dink and dunk Style semi successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, drfrey13 said: My entire point was from 2008 to 2013 we did not have great QBs with bad talent around them and they managed 34 wins. We have had Carr surrounded with better talent, still not good, and he has managed 39 wins. He had good talent and he played well. 2014,2015, and 2016 the trajectory looked great and we all had thoughts of a Super Bowl contender because of the team. There was a spark and then it was snuffed out. The MVP talk is overblown and the real reason we were so successful, he played a part in this, was our TO ratio was amazing. I do not put all the blame on Carr but I do not think he is the type of QB you go all in on. You can win a championship with him but he will not win you a championship. Do you understand the distinction I am making here. He is to risk adverse to carry a team because you have to be willing to loss everything to win everything. Just not the type of QB he is now. Talent, coaching, or injury does not change the fact that he is Maverick after Goose died. The ability is there but he refuses to pull the trigger. The argument is not Carr haters vs supporters. It is those who believe he can regain his form and those that believe there is something mentally that will not be fixed. I do not think anyone in here believes Carr does not have the physical talent. "We have had Carr surrounded with better talent" Totally subjective and false. In 2018 his WR's were a washed up Nelson, a bum in Roberts and a worthless bum in Ateman. We had a D that couldn't stop a high school team and a fat/slow washed up bum in Lynch. "He had good talent and he played well. 2014,2015, and 2016 the trajectory looked great and we all had thoughts of a Super Bowl contender because of the team". Explain to me all of the "good" talent this team had during those years? We had Mack who was a stud, we had a soft Cooper who nearly everyone will admit is soft, has questionable hands and cannot be an elite #1 and Crabs who's career was over after he left Oakland (he was clearly on the decline while he was here). Explain to me all of this other great talent we had on the roster? "The MVP talk is overblown and the real reason we were so successful, he played a part in this, was our TO ratio was amazing". Complete and utter subjective nonsense. Are you trying to tell me that our D was amazing in 2016? If so tell me who the studs we had on D in 2016 besides Mack... Have you even looked at that complete dumpster fire of defensive players hahahaha totally clueless thinking that trash D had anything to do with Carr being in the MVP hunt. "You can win a championship with him but he will not win you a championship". Name me the current QB's that will "win you a championship" and can do it with no supporting cast as you imply. That is what you want so how many NFL QB's fall into that category? Also tell me which NFL QB's that are without a doubt superior building block QB's over Carr? Keep in mind guys like Brady dont fall into that category bc they are 43. "Just not the type of QB he is now. Talent, coaching, or injury does not change the fact that he is Maverick after Goose died. The ability is there but he refuses to pull the trigger". This is completely subjective and conjecture. You expect Carr to put up elite passing numbers/TD's throwing to Nelson, Roberts and Ateman with zero run game in Lynch and a absolute embarrassment of a D that has him always playing from behind? You can't be serious and tell me you understand more about football than your post suggest. Edited July 7, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said: Except Alex wasn’t afraid to tuck it and run which is what imo made his dink and dunk Style semi successful. Alex Smith (200 rushing yards per season over the span of his career) averaged 7.5 more rushing YPG than Carr over his career and you're trying to tell me that is what made his style semi successful? You can't be serious LOL Edited July 7, 2020 by Frankie2Gunz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 35 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: "We have had Carr surrounded with better talent" Totally subjective and false. In 2018 his WR's were a washed up Nelson, a bum in Roberts and a worthless bum in Ateman. We had a D that couldn't stop a high school team and a fat/slow washed up bum in Lynch. "He had good talent and he played well. 2014,2015, and 2016 the trajectory looked great and we all had thoughts of a Super Bowl contender because of the team". Explain to me all of the "good" talent this team had during those years? We had Mack who was a stud, we had a soft Cooper who nearly everyone will admit is soft, has questionable hands and cannot be an elite #1 and Crabs who's career was over after he left Oakland (he was clearly on the decline while he was here). Explain to me all of this other great talent we had on the roster? "The MVP talk is overblown and the real reason we were so successful, he played a part in this, was our TO ratio was amazing". Complete and utter subjective nonsense. Are you trying to tell me that our D was amazing in 2016? If so tell me who the studs we had on D in 2016 besides Mack... Have you even looked at that complete dumpster fire of defensive players hahahaha totally clueless thinking that trash D had anything to do with Carr being in the MVP hunt. "You can win a championship with him but he will not win you a championship". Name me the current QB's that will "win you a championship" and can do it with no supporting cast as you imply. That is what you want so how many NFL QB's fall into that category? Also tell me which NFL QB's that are without a doubt superior building block QB's over Carr? Keep in mind guys like Brady dont fall into that category bc they are 43. "Just not the type of QB he is now. Talent, coaching, or injury does not change the fact that he is Maverick after Goose died. The ability is there but he refuses to pull the trigger". This is completely subjective and conjecture. You expect Carr to put up elite passing numbers/TD's throwing to Nelson, Roberts and Ateman with zero run game in Lynch and a absolute embarrassment of a D that has him always playing from behind? You can't be serious and tell me you understand more about football than your post suggest. You're well within your rights to disagree, but we can all be a little more civil. Good to see some healthy banter in the offseason though. A lot of questions to be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: "We have had Carr surrounded with better talent" Totally subjective and false. In 2018 his WR's were a washed up Nelson, a bum in Roberts and a worthless bum in Ateman. We had a D that couldn't stop a high school team and a fat/slow washed up bum in Lynch. "He had good talent and he played well. 2014,2015, and 2016 the trajectory looked great and we all had thoughts of a Super Bowl contender because of the team". Explain to me all of the "good" talent this team had during those years? We had Mack who was a stud, we had a soft Cooper who nearly everyone will admit is soft, has questionable hands and cannot be an elite #1 and Crabs who's career was over after he left Oakland (he was clearly on the decline while he was here). Explain to me all of this other great talent we had on the roster? "The MVP talk is overblown and the real reason we were so successful, he played a part in this, was our TO ratio was amazing". Complete and utter subjective nonsense. Are you trying to tell me that our D was amazing in 2016? If so tell me who the studs we had on D in 2016 besides Mack... Have you even looked at that complete dumpster fire of defensive players hahahaha totally clueless thinking that trash D had anything to do with Carr being in the MVP hunt. "You can win a championship with him but he will not win you a championship". Name me the current QB's that will "win you a championship" and can do it with no supporting cast as you imply. That is what you want so how many NFL QB's fall into that category? Also tell me which NFL QB's that are without a doubt superior building block QB's over Carr? Keep in mind guys like Brady dont fall into that category bc they are 43. "Just not the type of QB he is now. Talent, coaching, or injury does not change the fact that he is Maverick after Goose died. The ability is there but he refuses to pull the trigger". This is completely subjective and conjecture. You expect Carr to put up elite passing numbers/TD's throwing to Nelson, Roberts and Ateman with zero run game in Lynch and a absolute embarrassment of a D? You can't be serious. Excuse me for making subjective statements on a discussion board. If that is your main argument then there is nothing else to say. Better talent: 2008 - Cooper/Crabtree the #1 WR were Zach Miller, DHB, Brandon Meyers, Rod Streater, and Holmes. You could say the best player there is Miller who did not top 400 yards a season after leaving. With exception of 2018 he has had better WRs, oline, and RBs. On defense Carr had Woodson and Mack. Prior to Carr you had Seymor and Nnamdi. We have been without defensive talent for quite some time. Are you trying to tell me that TO ratio relative to win/loss is subjective? I am not going to say with 100% there is causation because you can not but the correlation is so strong this point is not worth arguing. I will just let you look that one up or read something on it. You really did not understand the win with him but he will not win one for you. To do it you will need a strong overall team effort to win. Think Garappolo vs Mahomes. Which building block QB would I take over Carr? I think I have seen this argument before. I can discuss my critiques of him without having to pick someone else. He is my QB right now so I will discuss him. Good try going down this digression again. Nobody has said he has to be a HOF QB. He is gun shy and almost all of us will agree about this. Your own comeback does not even dispute it. You just made an excuse for it. Do you think Carr is an elite QB or a game manager. If he is elite he should have accomplished more in my opinion no matter the players around him. I think he will play a lot better next year if everyone stays healthy but I think we might have to go in a different direction to have sustained success. Edited July 8, 2020 by drfrey13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: Excuse me for making subjective statements on a discussion board. If that is your main argument then there is nothing else to say. Better talent: 2008 - Cooper/Crabtree the #1 WR were Zach Miller, DHB, Brandon Meyers, Rod Streater, and Holmes. You could say the best player there is Miller who did not top 400 yards a season after leaving. With exception of 2018 he has had better WRs, oline, and RBs. On defense Carr had Woodson and Mack. Prior to Carr you had Seymor and Nnamdi. We have been without defensive talent for quite some time. Are you trying to tell me that TO ratio relative to win/loss is subjective? I am not going to say with 100% there is causation because you can not but the correlation is so strong this point is not worth arguing. I will just let you look that one up or read something on it. You really did not understand the win with him but he will not win one for you. To do it you will need a strong overall team effort to win. Think Garappolo vs Mahomes. Which building block QB would I take over Carr? I think I have seen this argument before. I can discuss my critiques of him without having to pick someone else. He is my QB right now so I will discuss him. Good try going down this digression again. Nobody has said he has to be a HOF QB. He is gun shy and almost all of us will agree about this. Your own comeback does not even dispute it. You just made an excuse for it. Do you think Carr is an elite QB or a game manager. If he is elite he should have accomplished more in my opinion no matter the players around him. I think he will play a lot better next year if everyone stays healthy but I think we might have to go in a different direction to have sustained success. Which building block QB would I take over Carr? I'm just interested to see what QB's you would unequivocally list over Carr to build around. I find it fascinating that one would criticize Carr but be unwilling to list better building block Qb's than him. Everyone want's a Russell Wilson but let me tell you there are very few QB's who can do as much with so little. "Do you think Carr is an elite QB or a game manager". People throw the word elite around too loosely as there are very few elite NFL qb's. If I was to list Qb's in tiers I would put Carr in the 2nd tier with the likes of Stafford, Prescott, Ryan, Wentz etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: Alex Smith (200 rushing yards per season over the span of his career) averaged 7.5 more rushing YPG than Carr over his career and you're trying to tell me that is what made his style semi successful? You can't be serious LOL Um Alex rushed for more yards in one year (2015) then carr has rushed in his whole career....Alex has more rushing tds in one year than carr in his whole career also....do you want to talk about first downs gained by rushing? Cause Alex has carr beat in that category also. so yes him not being scared to run has helped him imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said: Um Alex rushed for more yards in one year (2015) then carr has rushed in his whole career....Alex has more rushing tds in one year than carr in his whole career also....do you want to talk about first downs gained by rushing? Cause Alex has carr beat in that category also. so yes him not being scared to run has helped him imo. So what LOL Like I said he averages 7.5 more rushing YPG than Carr and averages 200 rushing yards per year and you're using that as your basis as Smiths "semi successful" career. I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 29 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said: So what LOL Like I said he averages 7.5 more rushing YPG than Carr and averages 200 rushing yards per year and you're using that as your basis as Smiths "semi successful" career. I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make. If he is able to get an extra first down or 2 that can make a huge difference for your defense in the 4th quarter. When he picks up the yards and for what reasons can have a major impact on your team. Just think of week 1 in 2016 against the Saints. You know what I am talking about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 44 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: If he is able to get an extra first down or 2 that can make a huge difference for your defense in the 4th quarter. When he picks up the yards and for what reasons can have a major impact on your team. Just think of week 1 in 2016 against the Saints. You know what I am talking about. I was about to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said: So what LOL Like I said he averages 7.5 more rushing YPG than Carr and averages 200 rushing yards per year and you're using that as your basis as Smiths "semi successful" career. I'm not quite sure the point you're trying to make. Point is That carr isn’t on Alex smith’s level partly due to his fear or lack of running ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, NCOUGHMAN said: Point is That carr isn’t on Alex smith’s level partly due to his fear or lack of running ability. I think it has more to do with his situational awareness but panic can play a part in that awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, drfrey13 said: I think it has more to do with his situational awareness but panic can play a part in that awareness. I say it’s guts this is not young pre injury carr Edited July 8, 2020 by NCOUGHMAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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