Pick # 139 is in: CB, Amik Robertson, Louisana Tech

[jimkelly02]

1 minute ago, OG_C2X said:

I agree with the Mathieu comp.

I equally agree with the high hopes for Johnson.  But I admit could just be acting like suckers of overhype, like we’ve been so so many times over the last 20 years for a promising young or salvage projects.

idk though,, he just seems like he’s gonna show he’s a quality CB2 on the outside this year... ugh I even laugh at myself when I say this.  There’s just so much to like about him.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

Joyner is already locked into a roster spot whether he plays or not. In that scenario though I'd like to see Joyner moved back to FS. 

There’s virtually zero chance Joyner is moved to the slot, whether that is the “best decision” or not.  The coaches and Front Office doubled down on the vision of Joyner playing the slot and have rather strong confidence in him, to the point of passing on Highly regarded FAs.

 

1 hour ago, OG_C2X said:

So the Isaiah Johnson hype machine from Mayock was unreal. Was going to take him after the trade back in the second round if their target Mullen was picked. Say he comes out and beasts. Starts outside opposite to Mullen and looks like our best player... you wouldn't want to cut Joyner, and play Johnson, Mullen and Arnette at CB with Abram and Amik at safety. That is a young and potentially scary secondary. 

Just to clarify are you advocating for Robertson at FS? If so I think that’s a poor poor move.  He’s way to short to cover TEs and way too light to be the last line of defense and called upon to head downhill on run plays and stuff the run.  He’s a slot CB only, but you could use him in a variety of schemes/packages.  Plus, I think his greatest virtue is short area burst and you wouldn’t be gaining a wide ranging FS that gives you enough from that aspect to compensate for the size and strength concerns as a S.

Note: when I made the HonyBadger comp is was as a slot CB, not as a FS.

I think Joyner and Robertson are very similar players in the sense they both would be best used in a Creative, hybrid role.  They also both have height and run stuffing concerns when used as a S.  Since we don’t play predominantly single high FS with a box SS, in our scheme they’d both have to take on TEs in coverage and stuff the run.  That’d create problems for them.

[Blazer026]

2 hours ago, OG_C2X said:

So the Isaiah Johnson hype machine from Mayock was unreal. Was going to take him after the trade back in the second round if their target Mullen was picked. Say he comes out and beasts. Starts outside opposite to Mullen and looks like our best player... you wouldn't want to cut Joyner, and play Johnson, Mullen and Arnette at CB with Abram and Amik at safety. That is a young and potentially scary secondary. 

I don’t know what to think of Johnson. When he came back from injury he only got like 10 snaps. Maybe he still wasn’t recovered, I don’t know. 

[OG_C2X]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

I equally agree with the high hopes for Johnson.  But I admit could just be acting like suckers of overhype, like we’ve been so so many times over the last 20 years for a promising young or salvage projects.

idk though,, he just seems like he’s gonna show he’s a quality CB2 on the outside this year... ugh I even laugh at myself when I say this.  There’s just so much to like about him.

I just proposed a what if situation. I don't have a ton of confidence in Johnson. 

[OG_C2X]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

There’s virtually zero chance Joyner is moved to the slot, whether that is the “best decision” or not.  The coaches and Front Office doubled down on the vision of Joyner playing the slot and have rather strong confidence in him, to the point of passing on Highly regarded FAs.

 

Just to clarify are you advocating for Robertson at FS? If so I think that’s a poor poor move.  He’s way to short to cover TEs and way too light to be the last line of defense and called upon to head downhill on run plays and stuff the run.  He’s a slot CB only, but you could use him in a variety of schemes/packages.  Plus, I think his greatest virtue is short area burst and you wouldn’t be gaining a wide ranging FS that gives you enough from that aspect to compensate for the size and strength concerns as a S.

Note: when I made the HonyBadger comp is was as a slot CB, not as a FS.

I think Joyner and Robertson are very similar players in the sense they both would be best used in a Creative, hybrid role.  They also both have height and run stuffing concerns when used as a S.  Since we don’t play predominantly single high FS with a box SS, in our scheme they’d both have to take on TEs in coverage and stuff the run.  That’d create problems for them.

No not at all. I simply asked what if...

[jimkelly02]

43 minutes ago, OG_C2X said:

No not at all. I simply asked what if...

My bad,, sorry.

[Turnobili]

2 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

There’s virtually zero chance Joyner is moved to the slot, whether that is the “best decision” or not.  The coaches and Front Office doubled down on the vision of Joyner playing the slot and have rather strong confidence in him, to the point of passing on Highly regarded FAs.

 

Just to clarify are you advocating for Robertson at FS? If so I think that’s a poor poor move.  He’s way to short to cover TEs and way too light to be the last line of defense and called upon to head downhill on run plays and stuff the run.  He’s a slot CB only, but you could use him in a variety of schemes/packages.  Plus, I think his greatest virtue is short area burst and you wouldn’t be gaining a wide ranging FS that gives you enough from that aspect to compensate for the size and strength concerns as a S.

Note: when I made the HonyBadger comp is was as a slot CB, not as a FS.

I think Joyner and Robertson are very similar players in the sense they both would be best used in a Creative, hybrid role.  They also both have height and run stuffing concerns when used as a S.  Since we don’t play predominantly single high FS with a box SS, in our scheme they’d both have to take on TEs in coverage and stuff the run.  That’d create problems for them.

in systems where FS and SS are actually distinct, it is the SS that covers TE's, not the FS.

SS lines up on the same side as the TE (the strong side) and engages with him on run plays to make the stop, and engages with him on pass plays to cover him. this is why seattle was successful with the undersized Earl Thomas at FS playing the center field role while Chancellor, the SS, was taking on TE's. it's also why Karl Joseph never clicked. he had the style of play of a SS (not particularly natural as a deep center fielder, and loved being in the box and making tackles), but was never quite able to overcome his size to successfully defend against TE's (yes i know he broke up a pass to a TE to seal our win against Detroit).

i think projecting Amik to FS is a fools errand because he has no experience there... not because he couldnt theoretically succeed there. i think he can compare somewhat to Mathieu, but its also a fair point that mathieu was a very hybrid player and not just assigned to one position, though he sorta did the Joyner thing and split time between FS and slot corner

edit: i want to make clear that i acknolwedgey your post points out that our system doesnt necessarily go with those defined roles of FS and SS, but that also sorta flies against our drafting of Abram who is a SS through and through

Edited May 5, 2020 by Turnobili

[NYRaider]

20 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

it's also why Karl Joseph never clicked. he had the style of play of a SS (not particularly natural as a deep center fielder, and loved being in the box and making tackles), but was never quite able to overcome his size to successfully defend against TE's (yes i know he broke up a pass to a TE to seal our win against Detroit).

i think projecting Amik to FS is a fools errand because he has no experience there... not because he couldnt theoretically succeed there. i think he can compare somewhat to Mathieu, but its also a fair point that mathieu was a very hybrid player and not just assigned to one position, though he sorta did the Joyner thing and split time between FS and slot corner

Joseph was supposed to be like a smaller version of what Abram projects to be. I think the biggest issue with him was that he lost some of his juice when he banged up his knee in his last season at WVU and as you said didn't have the range of a FS or the size/man coverage ability to be effective as a SS. 

FWIW Robertson said he's ready and able to play outside, in the slot, or at safety if needed in his post draft interview. I think he'll be at his best in a hybrid role where he's moved around the field. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by NYRaider

[NYRaider]

20 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

edit: i want to make clear that i acknolwedgey our post points out that our system doesnt necessarily go with those defined roles of FS and SS, but that also sorta flies against our drafting of Abram who is a SS through and through

And Randall is a FS so hopefully we see more defined roles this year. You have Randall/Harris who will likely always be lined up at FS with Abram/Heath who will always be lined up at SS. 

[Turnobili]

1 minute ago, NYRaider said:

Joseph was supposed to be like a smaller version of what Abram projects to be. I think the biggest issue with him was that he lost some of his juice when he banged up his knee in his last season at WVU and as you said didn't have the range of a FS or the size/man coverage ability to be effective as a SS. 

FWIW Robertson said he's ready and able to play outside, in the slot, or at safety if needed in his post draft interview. I think he'll be at his best in a hybrid role where he's moved around the field. 

i think at his highest aspiration he is Antoine Winfield/Chris Harris, in that he plays the slot against 11 personnel but lines up outside in base. winfield was primarily considered an outside corner while harris was primarily slot mostly because of era. when winfield played, base 2 WR sets were the norm, and during Chris Harris's time, 3 WR was the norm.

[Turnobili]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

And Randall is a FS so hopefully we see more defined roles this year. You have Randall/Harris who will likely always be lined up at FS with Abram/Heath who will always be lined up at SS. 

yeah, the vastly differing skill sets of Randall/Abram are indicative of having defined safety roles, which makes a lot more sense than asking 2 different safeties to be able to do everything at a high level. BB and the Pats have long had success by drafting players who do particular things well and having them go out and do that thing

[Humble_Beast]

That’s how defenders need to be, mean dogs trying to attack an offense. Not playing scared fo get burned and happy to be there.... 

[OG_C2X]

1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said:

My bad,, sorry.

You're good. Just trying to start a discussion. I am not advocating it but I would also not be surprised.

[jimkelly02]

55 minutes ago, Turnobili said:

in systems where FS and SS are actually distinct, it is the SS that covers TE's, not the FS.

SS lines up on the same side as the TE (the strong side) and engages with him on run plays to make the stop, and engages with him on pass plays to cover him. this is why seattle was successful with the undersized Earl Thomas at FS playing the center field role while Chancellor, the SS, was taking on TE's. it's also why Karl Joseph never clicked. he had the style of play of a SS (not particularly natural as a deep center fielder, and loved being in the box and making tackles), but was never quite able to overcome his size to successfully defend against TE's (yes i know he broke up a pass to a TE to seal our win against Detroit).

i think projecting Amik to FS is a fools errand because he has no experience there... not because he couldnt theoretically succeed there. i think he can compare somewhat to Mathieu, but its also a fair point that mathieu was a very hybrid player and not just assigned to one position, though he sorta did the Joyner thing and split time between FS and slot corner

edit: i want to make clear that i acknolwedgey your post points out that our system doesnt necessarily go with those defined roles of FS and SS, but that also sorta flies against our drafting of Abram who is a SS through and through

Yeah for the first time ever I just didn’t want to do into depth on the Safties role in our system...just kept it basic.. but.... Abram’s is a prototypical SS but I think he’s not the typical “box only” SS.  He’s got enough speed and coverage ability to play on the backend, especially when he’s not tasked with covering the full field and only 1/2.  I’m not the least bit worried about him in coverage in our system.  

I didn’t say Robertson compares to TM.  I said Robertson compares to TM as a slot CB.  I maybe should have explained that better.

[NYRaider]

3 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Yeah for the first time ever I just didn’t want to do into depth on the Safties role in our system...just kept it basic.. but.... Abram’s is a prototypical SS but I think he’s not the typical “box only” SS.  He’s got enough speed and coverage ability to play on the backend, especially when he’s not tasked with covering the full field and only 1/2.  I’m not the least bit worried about him in coverage in our system.  

I didn’t say Robertson compares to TM.  I said Robertson compares to TM as a slot CB.  I maybe should have explained that better.

One of the things that I'm most curious to see is how Abram holds up in coverage this year.