bigbadbuff Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 10 hours ago, Plat2 said: You gotta be ******* kidding me. I mean he would. Just like saying Adam Ottavino would strike out Babe Ruth every time. It’s a vacuum claim. Obviously if you take their natural born talent, give them today’s training then it would be a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 hours ago, lancerman said: And people attack Lebron for going to Miami and Durant for going to the Warriors. But the Bulls added Rodman in the middle of their run after he already was basically the best defensive player in the league. Prime Lebron joining a superteam in Miami and KD joining the 73-9 Warriors after being up 3-1 in Conf. Finals would have been like MJ going to the bad boy Pistons after losing to them so many times, its nothing close to the Bulls adding a 34 year old Dennis Rodman...c'mon now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 4 hours ago, CP3MVP said: So to recap, Jordan isn’t the all time leader in championships or league MVPs, he doesn’t lead all time in points scored assists rebounds steals blocks either. He doesn’t even have the all nba team selections all time at his OWN position. Jordan is all time NBA leader in PER. Jordan has 5 of the 7 best seasons in NBA history in VORP. He led the league for 7 straight years in win shares, which no player has ever done. Try digging deeper, only using counting stats is dumb. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m haynes Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Jim Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) On 5/31/2020 at 1:31 PM, AngusMcFife said: Jordan is all time NBA leader in PER. Jordan has 5 of the 7 best seasons in NBA history in VORP. He led the league for 7 straight years in win shares, which no player has ever done. Try digging deeper, only using counting stats is dumb. So now it’s about advanced stats and not all nba teams and mvp awards. Edited June 1, 2020 by CP3MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, CP3MVP said: So now it’s about advanced stats and not all nba teams and mvp awards. PER is the only star that matters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 On 5/31/2020 at 7:30 AM, lancerman said: Mike Tyson 5’10 Ali 6’3 Lennox Lewis 6’5 Larry Holmes 6’3 Joe Louis 6’2 Evander Holyfield 6’2 George Foreman 6’4 So Fury must somehow be the GOAT boxer because he has size on all those legends. Again Fury’s only big wins were against Klitschko who was old and way out of his prime by that point and Wilder who has horrible technique who has been derided his entire career for it despite having arguably the best hook in boxing history. And I like Wilder too but he always was one of the most vulnerable and incomplete champions the division ever had. He’s tall. He’s not a power puncher and never has been, yes he’s got knockouts but it’s mostly been by just continually out boxing guys and getting them on technique (only 3 regular KO’s on his record). How best trait is his footwork. But Ali was amazing at foot work and had better punching technique and could generate more power. Both had good jabs but Ali had one of the most dangerous in the history of boxing. Ali looked great and fought world class fights no matter who he was in the ring with. Fury fights down to his opponent and has gotten in battles with some pretty average opponents. Since he’s been back he needed to go to the judges on a guy who basically wrapped his career after the fight and was already on the downside, nearly got KO’d by Wilder once, beat a complete nobody who it was embarrassing he was even in the same ring in Schwarz and in the only fight against someone decent besides Wilder he needed to go to the judges on Wallin who busted his eye open and gave him a ton of trouble. I don’t think people understand, Ali was completely untouchable before he was denied his fighting license over Vietnam. Nobody even champions like Liston and Patterson didn’t look like they belonged in the same ring. Like most people remember him after he lost his prime and after he lost a lot of speed which was his biggest differentiator. And he still beat Frazier twice, Norton twice, Foreman, at 36 he won his title back from a 25 year old Spinks and it wasn’t until he was 38 and fought one of the 3 best heavyweight fighters since him that he finally lost the belt for good. I don’t see anyway that anybody just assumes Fury beats him. Taller fighters lose all the time. Ali has more speed, more power, can take more than Fury ever took, has a better jab (and that’s Fury’s strength too), and they are pretty close on footwork but Ali was a Floyd Mayweather type magician. And even if you close the gap I give Ali an even bigger advantage in a brawl. Dude, boxing has changed significantly in 50 years, just like all sports have. The level of skill and the level of size with skill has steadily improved, and that's no more evident than in the heavyweight division. Andy Ruiz is the only heavyweight worth a damn currently that would be the same height as Ali. Joshua, Wilder, and Fury all would dwarf him. All 3 of those guys are taller than the tallest fighter that Ali fought that was worth a damn. I think Fury would handle a lot of those guys. Evander Holyfield was a pumped up Cruiser division fighter who was plenty good at heavyweight, but would be giving up 50 pounds. There's a reason there aren't any of these guys hanging around boxing right now. Joe Louis barely fought anybody with any size. This is his fight against a dude listed at 6'7. Comparing the skill level of the 1940s with the skill level of modern fighters is ridiculous: Tyson is obviously unique in that you never know what you were going to get with him, but it's not like Tyson didn't have trouble with length in Douglas or Lewis. +++ Stop with the nonsense that Ali is a harder hitter than Fury. Ali isn't Mike Tyson, he's not Deontay Wilder. He was a breathtaking boxer who was fast and graceful as hell, but the game has evolved since then. Your best punch being a jab when you give up 6 inches of length isn't a good thing. It's especially not a good thing against a guy like Fury who may be the best mover in the division since Ali. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 On 5/31/2020 at 12:25 PM, Plat2 said: Prime Lebron joining a superteam in Miami and KD joining the 73-9 Warriors after being up 3-1 in Conf. Finals would have been like MJ going to the bad boy Pistons after losing to them so many times, its nothing close to the Bulls adding a 34 year old Dennis Rodman...c'mon now. Alternatively, Jordan told the Bulls to screw off, he wasn't going to play for them if he didn't have a monster team twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Alternatively, Jordan told the Bulls to screw off, he wasn't going to play for them if he didn't have a monster team twice. Still not as bad as talking to other All Stars to create a super team because of one team that keeps beating you, or joining an all time great team that you were up 3-1 on. Edited June 3, 2020 by Plat2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, Plat2 said: Still not as bad as talking to other All Stars to create a super team because of one team that keeps beating you, or joining an all time great team that you were up 3-1 on. Define "As Bad" only one of them ever walked out on a contract. The other two were Free Agent decisions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Define "As Bad" only one of them ever walked out on a contract. The other two were Free Agent decisions. Bad in terms of competition, obviously they were FAs so they were free to go wherever they wanted, but their reputation definitely took a hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Plat2 said: Bad in terms of competition, obviously they were FAs so they were free to go wherever they wanted, but their reputation definitely took a hit. Why shouldn't Jordan's? The other two were at least playing ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plat2 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Why shouldn't Jordan's? The other two were at least playing ball? If I have to keep explaining why then there is no point, and I'm not sure why you think MJ retired in 93 after his THIRD championship because of the roster, the Bulls had all of their main guys still on the team, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Cartwright, Paxson were all still on the team. Compare that to what the ringless Lebron and KD did and it's night and day really. Edited June 3, 2020 by Plat2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Plat2 said: If I have to keep explaining why then there is no point, and I'm not sure why you think MJ retired in 93 after his THIRD championship because of the roster, the Bulls had all of their main guys still on the team, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Cartwright, Paxson were all still on the team. Compare that to what the ringless Lebron and KD did and it's night and day really. I just want to make sure we're on the same page here that (at least in the case of LeBron) leaving your God forsaken team (and if we want to have a conversation about LeBron the GM, that's a more nuanced conversation that I'm here for) to go to a more talented team, is somehow less competitive than just straight up quitting? Let's be real. The success of the 94 Bulls: being a game away from the Finals, winning 50+ regular season games, and Pippen coming in 3rd in the MVP voting, might be the most damning thing to Jordan's GOAT case in comparison to LeBron. LeBron's Cavs (admittedly there was more change than just him) lost LeBron and plummeted all the way to the #1 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 6/2/2020 at 7:47 AM, AlexGreen#20 said: Dude, boxing has changed significantly in 50 years, just like all sports have. The level of skill and the level of size with skill has steadily improved, and that's no more evident than in the heavyweight division. Andy Ruiz is the only heavyweight worth a damn currently that would be the same height as Ali. Joshua, Wilder, and Fury all would dwarf him. All 3 of those guys are taller than the tallest fighter that Ali fought that was worth a damn. I think Fury would handle a lot of those guys. Evander Holyfield was a pumped up Cruiser division fighter who was plenty good at heavyweight, but would be giving up 50 pounds. There's a reason there aren't any of these guys hanging around boxing right now. Joe Louis barely fought anybody with any size. This is his fight against a dude listed at 6'7. Comparing the skill level of the 1940s with the skill level of modern fighters is ridiculous: Tyson is obviously unique in that you never know what you were going to get with him, but it's not like Tyson didn't have trouble with length in Douglas or Lewis. +++ Stop with the nonsense that Ali is a harder hitter than Fury. Ali isn't Mike Tyson, he's not Deontay Wilder. He was a breathtaking boxer who was fast and graceful as hell, but the game has evolved since then. Your best punch being a jab when you give up 6 inches of length isn't a good thing. It's especially not a good thing against a guy like Fury who may be the best mover in the division since Ali. Luis Ortiz is 6’4 and he gave Wilder trouble in both fights. Dillian Whyte is also one of the top heavyweights. He is also 6”4. Povetkin is up there and he’s 6’2. Parker is also 6’4. Like you said Ruiz is 6’2. To me those guys along with Wilder, Fury, Joshua are the top 8-10 fighters in the HW division. Id place Joshua clearly at the top imo and he’s the shortest of the champions. All the other guys I would say are serious threat to Wilder and Fury who are the two tallest top ranked boxers at heavyweight. Im not saying Ali is Tyson or Wilder. But he was a much finisher than Fury at any point in his career. In his prime he was getting out of fights a lot earlier even as champion and he could make quick work of guys like Liston. It wasn’t until after his suspension that he lost a lot of speed and power that he started having fights drag on. Fury on the other hand was having issues stopping fights as soon as he stopped fighting regional fighters and was facing top ranked guys. People used to say the same thing about Ali’s jab when he was in his prime. Then almost every guy he ever fought would say “oh damn those jabs messed me up and I didn’t realize it”. There’s only two top heavyweight fighters who would have been an extreme size difference compared to era for Ali (grantee Joshua would be on the tall end), and one is probably the most incomplete heavyweight champion in recent memory, and the other is really good but fights down to opponents all the time and never had the consistency or striking power of Ali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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